Confidentiality of Tithes

[Steve Epley]

I am sadden some of you had such bad experiences with some pastors like someone quoted Ezk. 34 will get them. But since you have listed your complaints about preachers who evidently are more concerned about money than the ministry itself would you allow me to tell the other side?
In my years of pastoring we have slept in the church, driven automobiles we prayed would make it to the store, bought clothes at second hand stores. I have given my last dime to needy saints, bought their kids shoes & clothes, paid their way to youth camps, took folks to work when they had no car, cleared their walks of snow so the elderly would not fall. My wife has bathed the elderly saints, took thwm shopping and to the drug store and hospital, interupted our own plans to sit at hospitals all night long(many times without so much as a thank you).
Now for the church we have been janitors when some saints would know where the mop or broom is found at the church. If a need for the church came yes I have paid it gladly without burdening the saints and let my own personal needs go. If anyone had to tighten thier belt because giving was lean it wasn't the saints it was us. When revival offerings were low I made up the difference. When some 'forgot' their missionary pledges I made them up. When home missionaries were struggling yes I did without and gave to them. I have helped churches I will never see because there was a need out of my pocket. I have bought struggling preachers suits, shoes, their family's clothes. Fixed evangelist's trucks, trailers. Sent clothes to missionaries. Sold my own goods to saints to give preachers a decent offering.
I am not complaining. But am I suppose to be ashamed because now God has blessed me for being a giver? My cars are nicer, my home is comfortable, my clothes were not purchased at goodwill, I can eat a little better than McDonalds.
I can buy my wife a new dress ever now and then. And might even take a few days off and call it a vacation(though I could be called back anytime).
I have learned givers preachers and saints are blessed. I have yet to meet my first non-tither who claims to give Jesus all give 10%. They are tightwad and thieves and think of no one but themselves. The church could not operate normally much less have revival or support missionaries on what they give. Their 'tithes' is in boats, fishing and hunting gear, cars, homes, vacations, they tithe to themselves. If you had a million of them you could not operate a church on them. they are the same folks that are not faithful or float from place to place. Spiritual gipsies and hitchhickers letting someone else pay the gas.There would be no churches, camps, missions, evangelists. pastors if you was depending on them. They come when they want they are more faithful to their tv shows than they are to God. Then when they show up they want you to announce 'we are soooooooooooooooo blessed with their presence.'
So folks it ain't one sided. I will repent for all the money loving preachers who thnk they own the church and the saints if someone will apologize for all the money loving saints who wander from pillar to post with their hand out mooching spiritual things because they don't have a cent invested in it.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Tithes are not for the needy. In the OT they had 3 tithes but the 1st tithe was for the ministry or priesthood.

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

Could you please provide for me the scriptures that cover the first tithe that you mention that was for the ministry or priesthood?

Bump.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

Bump.

You and I have went around this mountain several times and I gave you lesson on the 3 tithes of Isreal and how the 1st tithe began before the law was kept during the law and is present in the church age. Not going to do that today. But I tell you what I have paid tithes all my life and have also helped the needy. You can do both I have. God blessed me for doing it.
I bought a bill of groceries for a needy saint the other day and yesterday a man brought me a 1/2 a beef. You can't outgive God.
I gave an evangelist a large offering on his trailer and an automobile was given to me paid in full. I bought some poor boys probably the only nice pair of shes they had in their life and a man bought me some skins.
I tried it and it works.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

You and I have went around this mountain several times and I gave you lesson on the 3 tithes of Isreal and how the 1st tithe began before the law was kept during the law and is present in the church age. Not going to do that today. But I tell you what I have paid tithes all my life and have also helped the needy. You can do both I have. God blessed me for doing it.
I bought a bill of groceries for a needy saint the other day and yesterday a man brought me a 1/2 a beef. You can't outgive God.
I gave an evangelist a large offering on his trailer and an automobile was given to me paid in full. I bought some poor boys probably the only nice pair of shes they had in their life and a man bought me some skins.
I tried it and it works.

Indeed... But... You tend to not use scripture outside of the occasional vague reference to a scriptural happening. You're more a fan of anecdote. It's like pulling teeth to get you to give scripture for your beliefs.

I will probably make much more progress presenting the scriptures myself.

I assume you are referring to the following scriptures...

Numbers 18:23 But the Levites shall do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they shall bear their iniquity: [it shall be] a statute for ever throughout your generations, that among the children of Israel they have no inheritance.
Numbers 18:24 But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer [as] an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.

Are these the scriptures that you base this belief on?

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

I am sadden some of you had such bad experiences with some pastors like someone quoted Ezk. 34 will get them. But since you have listed your complaints about preachers who evidently are more concerned about money than the ministry itself would you allow me to tell the other side?
In my years of pastoring we have slept in the church, driven automobiles we prayed would make it to the store, bought clothes at second hand stores. I have given my last dime to needy saints, bought their kids shoes & clothes, paid their way to youth camps, took folks to work when they had no car, cleared their walks of snow so the elderly would not fall. My wife has bathed the elderly saints, took thwm shopping and to the drug store and hospital, interupted our own plans to sit at hospitals all night long(many times without so much as a thank you).
Now for the church we have been janitors when some saints would know where the mop or broom is found at the church. If a need for the church came yes I have paid it gladly without burdening the saints and let my own personal needs go. If anyone had to tighten thier belt because giving was lean it wasn't the saints it was us. When revival offerings were low I made up the difference. When some 'forgot' their missionary pledges I made them up. When home missionaries were struggling yes I did without and gave to them. I have helped churches I will never see because there was a need out of my pocket. I have bought struggling preachers suits, shoes, their family's clothes. Fixed evangelist's trucks, trailers. Sent clothes to missionaries. Sold my own goods to saints to give preachers a decent offering.
I am not complaining. But am I suppose to be ashamed because now God has blessed me for being a giver? My cars are nicer, my home is comfortable, my clothes were not purchased at goodwill, I can eat a little better than McDonalds.
I can buy my wife a new dress ever now and then. And might even take a few days off and call it a vacation(though I could be called back anytime).
I have learned givers preachers and saints are blessed. I have yet to meet my first non-tither who claims to give Jesus all give 10%. They are tightwad and thieves and think of no one but themselves. The church could not operate normally much less have revival or support missionaries on what they give. Their 'tithes' is in boats, fishing and hunting gear, cars, homes, vacations, they tithe to themselves. If you had a million of them you could not operate a church on them. they are the same folks that are not faithful or float from place to place. Spiritual gipsies and hitchhickers letting someone else pay the gas.There would be no churches, camps, missions, evangelists. pastors if you was depending on them. They come when they want they are more faithful to their tv shows than they are to God. Then when they show up they want you to announce 'we are soooooooooooooooo blessed with their presence.'
So folks it ain't one sided. I will repent for all the money loving preachers who thnk they own the church and the saints if someone will apologize for all the money loving saints who wander from pillar to post with their hand out mooching spiritual things because they don't have a cent invested in it.

Bro. Epley, if you are willigng to repent for the stingy preachers I certainly will do the same for the stingy members... I hesitate to call those that would do such 'saints'... any more that I can call the greedy preachers 'pastors'.

I am not even trying to hint that there are not folks on both sides who value money more than the things of God.

But while my former pastor may have done without as a very young man (as many young struggling couples do, in minstry or some other line of work) I do not find that an excuse to now live large.

Of course I am a person that believes that every Christian should live simply and that is a hugely unpopular view most everywhere. No matter what one's income level things like greed and waste are still sins.

God bless you for caring for those in your flock and outside of it as well.

[returnman]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

There are enough variables to make this almost impossible to answer. Every church has unique financial needs, from the home church that may need to cover the expenses of paper products to serve coffee and snacks to the sports-arena mega church.

Up until I began attending church with the UPCI more than a decade ago I always knew exactly how my money was spent. As a matter of fact at most southern baptist churches the 'tithes and offerings' collected from the last week, a running annual total, and expenses are listed with the announcements in the bulletin every week. The pastors salary as well as any other paid staff is available at business meetings. Stewardship is overseen by a board of elders/deacons.

Now the UPCI churches I have belonged to are not small... one was very large and the most recent is medium large. The pastors in both cases, receive all monies. There are several 'funds' which include a building fund and a general fund. Bills are paid out of the funds. I am sure others can find out what is in those funds but the main money is kept by the Pastor and no one knows how much that is or what he takes for a salary. My husband was told by a pastor friend that he is careful about how much is put in those funds because if they grow too large people start making plans on the money.

So to try to answer the support question... Both UPCI churches I have attended employ staff including an associate pastor, who does the hospital visits and most the grunt work, a full time secretary, people for housekeeping and grounds work. The lights are always on and both pastors have VERY nice homes, brand new cars (as do their wives who do not and never have worked) lake houses, one a motor cycle, very good retirement savings (known because of bragging about how they do not need my money they have all they will ever need, over the pulpit). Both appear to live and be set up well beyond their average congregant. BUT ONLY THE PASTOR KNOWS HOW MUCH MONEY THERE IS OR HOW IT IS SPENT.

In addition both have sons who have been in the ministry but have made a mess of things, in some of those cases they have gotten the big daddy bale out... while others are outright supported on the church payroll until the day they might receive their inheritance, just as Bro. Epeley mentioned.

It is that I consider this kind of conduct unacceptable that has me looking at other churches along with the long list of rules that are not biblical.

And before anyone asks... I don't wear pants or makeup or cut my hair or drink or smoke or even own a television and i am submitted to my own husband and we give above 10% of our income to our church home, orphans and the needy....and I could do all those things for the rest of my life without complaint... but I can not abide the lies, the arrogance, the double standard that are an innate part of the church system that I am part of.

While it could be said that most pastors wouldn't operate the this, the problem with the system of one minister/pastor/elder taking any control over monies lends itself to this kind of abuse. I have seen folks give the envelope directly to the pastor and not hit the offering plate and the church secretary ripping envelopes open in the office right after church and handing the money to the pastor. I assume it was still recorded but tell me.....what is this sort of monkey business suppose to make a member feel like? Maybe something shaddy going on here and/or I don't care what you think about how I operate?

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

Bro. Epley, if you are willigng to repent for the stingy preachers I certainly will do the same for the stingy members... I hesitate to call those that would do such 'saints'... any more that I can call the greedy preachers 'pastors'.

I am not even trying to hint that there are not folks on both sides who value money more than the things of God.

But while my former pastor may have done without as a very young man (as many young struggling couples do, in minstry or some other line of work) I do not find that an excuse to now live large.

Of course I am a person that believes that every Christian should live simply and that is a hugely unpopular view most everywhere. No matter what one's income level things like greed and waste are still sins.

God bless you for caring for those in your flock and outside of it as well.

I understand what you are saying but consider this any other saint in the church can be successful and we applaud them or at least I do. I love to see the saints who have struggled get a nicer home, auto, buy a new suit, get a fishing boat, go on a nice vacation. Ladies be able to go on a shopping trip and buys wants instead of saving for needs. So why should a pastor be punished for being successful? The church building is nice and immaculine, the poor are seen after, missionaries are supported, evangelists are well taken care of. So why begrudge a guy for driving a nice car and living in a comfortable home? They worked their way up like any other profession?

[Sweet Pea]

WOW !!!!!!!! Some of you have some stories to tell! I've never had a pastor that controlled all the money as some of you described! The pastor may have made the ultimate decisions regarding spending - and I may not have always agreed with those decisions, but he didn't "control" it in the way some of you have described. Guess I have been blessed!

It is my personal opinion that paying tithes is scriptural - just as giving offerings. God has always met our needs and most of our wants!

Brother Epley, I know that you are not like some of those described - however, I just can't wrap my mind around the fact that a pastor takes ALL the tithes ALL the time. I understand that you use a good portion of it to help evangelists, saints in need, missions, even sinners in need - but in my opinion, in the day and age we live, a pastor would be better off to have EVERYTHING run through the church books and then draw a salary. I have had some dealings with the Christian Law Association and I know that if you ever find yourself being sued or audited by the government due to a lawsuit, the first question asked will be: "Have you (pastor or other minister) EVER taken money (cash or checks) from the offering bags before it was counted and deposited into the church account?" If you answer yes to that one, you are in big trouble. If the minister is going to take the tithes as their own, checks should be made out to the minister - not the church - and at that point it cannot be recorded as a contribution!

[Sweet Pea]

And let it be said: I WANT my pastor to have nice things! I do not begrudge him having a nice home or car - but I guess I am blessed to have a pastor that doesn't "HAVE TO HAVE" it. He feels blessed by God when it is provided - and he doesn't believe in "keeping up with the Joneses" (or any other pastor or minister)!

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Sweet Pea

WOW !!!!!!!! Some of you have some stories to tell! I've never had a pastor that controlled all the money as some of you described! The pastor may have made the ultimate decisions regarding spending - and I may not have always agreed with those decisions, but he didn't "control" it in the way some of you have described. Guess I have been blessed!

It is my personal opinion that paying tithes is scriptural - just as giving offerings. God has always met our needs and most of our wants!

Brother Epley, I know that you are not like some of those described - however, I just can't wrap my mind around the fact that a pastor takes ALL the tithes ALL the time. I understand that you use a good portion of it to help evangelists, saints in need, missions, even sinners in need - but in my opinion, in the day and age we live, a pastor would be better off to have EVERYTHING run through the church books and then draw a salary. I have had some dealings with the Christian Law Association and I know that if you ever find yourself being sued or audited by the government due to a lawsuit, the first question asked will be: "Have you (pastor or other minister) EVER taken money (cash or checks) from the offering bags before it was counted and deposited into the church account?" If you answer yes to that one, you are in big trouble. If the minister is going to take the tithes as their own, checks should be made out to the minister - not the church - and at that point it cannot be recorded as a contribution!

I am not in disagreement with this.