John 1:12-13 discussion

[houston]

Originally Posted by Adino

I will say this and give everyone a chance to figure it out on their own first. The problem lies with the author's understanding of the word POWER. With this clue can you see where he has gone wrong?

Exhousia v. Dunamis? I do not have resources with me. I'll check it out tomorrow.

[Adino]

An acquaintance attempted to drive home the point that those who 'received [Christ]' in John 1:12 were further defined in v13 as those who were 'born of God.' Unfortunately, the author of this quote mistakenly thought the word "power" [exousia - meaning authority/privilege] in v12 had the same meaning as the word "power" [dunamis - meaning strength/ability] in Acts 1:8. In his response to the concerned brother the author connected the power referenced in Acts 1:8 with the power mentioned in John 1:12. This error made him completely miss the point that those of John 1:12-13 who had received Christ by faith were born of God and given the privilege of sonship. In the author's mind the enabling power [dunamis - strength/ability] of the Spirit (btw, the reception of which he had connected to speaking in tongues) brought sonship. In his confusion, this Oneness Pentecostal author of the early twentieth century drew a non-regenerative / non-salvific operation of the Spirit into the new birth experience. While the prevailing understanding in Pentecostalism at this time was that a reception of the enabling power [dunamis] of the Spirit was a "2nd" spirit baptism or a "2nd" work of grace the author began to consider it as an initial work of the Spirit in being born again.

This author also said, "Very few will agree with us on this subject at the first, but if they will lay aside the doctrine of men, and for a moment remove their thoughts from the abnormal state of the present day Christianity, they will find no trouble in grasping the truth AS IT IS NOW REVEALED to many of the children of God in these closing days of the Gospel dispensation."

[bbyrd009]

Ok, well, amen. I'll avoid any "relevance" jokes, as I see I answered the rhetorical Q earlier, pardon me; but could you possibly restate this? Ty.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Adino

Hello, everyone.... long time no see.

The following is from a minister recounting a discussion he had concerning John 1:12-13 which reads....

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

What are your thoughts on this gentleman's position?

"Recently we heard a strange interpretation given to verses 12 and 13 of the first chapter of St. John in a feeble effort to prove that a man is born of God before he receives the Holy Ghost. The twelfth verse says that "as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become sons of God." Our contention (Jude 3) was that the "power to become sons of God" was the baptism of the Holy Ghost, and this we proved by referring to Acts 1:8. But to avert a sudden collapse of this argument the expounder attempted to prove this statement by putting special stress on the word, "Which were born.... of God" The fact that the word "were" was in the past tense seemed to give him a strong point in his favor, that they were born of God before they received power to become sons of God. If they had to be given power to become sons of God after they were born, what were they before they got the power to become sons of God........"

Hello Adino, verse 12 puts believing and receiving before becoming sons of God. Verse 13 speaks to those who have believed and receiving and then moved on to becomes sons of God in which John explains that this new birth is not of man but of God. He uses "were" because he is speaking of believers who have already become born again.

[mizpeh]

I understand "gave he power to" as meaning " gave them the right to" so that those who believed and received Christ were in a right standing with God or accepted by Go that they might go on to become sons of God through the new birth.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

I understand "gave he power to" as meaning " gave them the right to" so that those who believed and received Christ were in a right standing with God or accepted by Go that they might go on to become sons of God through the new birth.

Hello Mizpeh... good to hear from you. So you believe one stands justified in the eyes of God before he is born of God? If justified is he yet condemned until born of God?

While you realize the correct understanding of the word power (exousia) in John 1:12 do you see how the author has mistaken its meaning?

[Adino]

The identity of the author is our old friend, G. T. Haywood. He was one of the very first, if not the first, to argue that an experience accompanied by speaking in tongues was part of being born again. This he referred to as new truth which "as time rolled on the illumination of the Holy Spirit began to reveal to the church...". Piggybacking on the New Issue controversy which stressed Jesus Name baptism this was Haywood's third leg to the innovative new birth teaching he handed down to so many in Oneness Pentecostalism today.

[Adino]

I've recently been reading through some of Haywood's writings again and noticed that he was also mistaken in his understanding of Isaiah 28:11-12. Haywood considered "the rest" mentioned in v12 as "full salvation." Of course, he then connected the... stammering lips and another tongue to the Pentecostal tongues experience. He, therefore, saw the tongues experience as necessary to bring "rest" or "full salvation" to the believer. He refers to the connection of "Spirit baptism" evidenced by tongues with full salvation and/or new birth as further "illumination of the Spirit" from which others in greater Pentecostalism began to falter.

Get that.... THEY began to falter because they would not accept his new revelation from heaven.

[houston]

Interesting.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

I understand "gave he power to" as meaning "gave them the right to" so that those who believed and received Christ were in a right standing with God or accepted by Go that they might go on to become sons of God through the new birth.

Would this be akin to justification for the purpose of coming forward and being regenerated?