Rejoicing In the Sabbath:

Aquila · #1 02-10-2012, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TGBTG

For Aquila to consider...

So... how many verses must I sift through to find God's commandments? How many are there? How can I be sure to keep a given statement in context? Who's interpretation of them do we follow? It's like looking for needles in a hay stack. God isn't the author of confusion.

Can you list ALL of the commandments binding upon Christians??? You'll start a virtual war between denominations and those here with various denominational backgrounds. lol

But... the Ten Commandments are perfect and simple. They are moral in nature and not legalistic with outward ceremonial show. For almost 2,000 years the Ten Commandments were the foundation of morality in Western Culture. We've thrown them out of our schools, our court houses, and even the churches. Who in their right minds would disagree that the following Ten Commandments do not only stand as a perfectly moral and holy guide to live by... but that they also do not reveal the very nature of God's own holiness?

The Ten Commandments

I
Thou shalt have no other gods before Me
II
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image
III
Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord
thy God in vain, for the Lord will not
hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain
IV
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy
V
Honor thy father and thy mother,
that thy days may be long upon the land
which the Lord thy God giveth thee
VI
Thou shalt not murder
VII
Thou shalt not commit adultery
VIII
Thou shalt not steal
IX
Thou shalt not bear false witness
against thy neighbor
X
Thou shalt not covet

Frankly, it's a beautiful Law of Liberty. Why? Because no man can place an arbitrary human interpretation upon you (legalism). I can agree with the Psalmist:

Psalm 1:1-6
1Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
3And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
4The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Selah.

TGBTG · #2 02-10-2012, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

So... how many verses must I sift through to find God's commandments? How many are there? How can I be sure to keep a given statement in context? Who's interpretation of them do we follow? It's like looking for needles in a hay stack. God isn't the author of confusion.

Can you list ALL of the commandments binding upon Christians??? You'll start a virtual war between denominations and those here with various denominational backgrounds. lol

1 John 3
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

The commands are listed here: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (which is essentially loving God). Love each other.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

But... the Ten Commandments are perfect and simple. They are moral in nature and not legalistic with outward ceremonial show. For almost 2,000 years the Ten Commandments were the foundation of morality in Western Culture. We've thrown them out of our schools, our court houses, and even the church. Who in their right minds would disagree that the following Ten Commandments do not only stand as a perfectly moral and holy guide to live by... but that they also do not reveal the very nature of God's own holiness?

The Ten Commandments

I
Thou shalt have no other gods before Me
II
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image
III
Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord
thy God in vain, for the Lord will not
hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain
IV
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy
V
Honor thy father and thy mother,
that thy days may be long upon the land
which the Lord thy God giveth thee
VI
Thou shalt not murder
VII
Thou shalt not commit adultery
VIII
Thou shalt not steal
IX
Thou shalt not bear false witness
against thy neighbor
X
Thou shalt not covet

Frankly, it's a beautiful Law of Liberty. Why? Because no man can place an arbitrary human interpretation upon you (legalism).

Actually bro, the 10 commands are not the law of liberty

Gal 5
13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

We cannot be UNDER the Law and yet be led of the Spirit. That's what Paul was saying. The law of liberty is to love one another.

James 2
8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

James contrasts the Law with the Law of liberty. The Law of the OT is NOT the Law of Liberty. Notice that James and Paul both refer to the law of liberty as "love your neighbor as yourself."

TGBTG · #3 02-10-2012, 09:43 AM

Rom 8:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Aquila,
I'm sure you agree that the letter of the Law states no adultery while the spirit of the Law states not to even look lustfully.
Also, the letter of the law states no killing, but the spirit of the law sates not to even hate.

So consider the letter of the law when it comes to the fourth commandment (keeping the sabbath). They (Natural Israel) were to do on work on that day.
Now, what do you think is the spirit of that same commandment?

Aquila · #4 02-10-2012, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TGBTG

Rom 8:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Aquila,
I'm sure you agree that the letter of the Law states no adultery while the spirit of the Law states not to even look lustfully.
Also, the letter of the law states no killing, but the spirit of the law sates not to even hate.

So consider the letter of the law when it comes to the fourth commandment (keeping the sabbath). They (Natural Israel) were to do on work on that day.
Now, what do you think is the spirit of that same commandment?

That is a question that I've considered. My issue is that as with every law in God's Law we observe both the letter and the spirit of the commandment. When it comes to the fourth commandment we are told to observe the spirit of the law but not the letter of the law. That, in my mind, is like saying that it's okay to violate the letter of the seventh commandment, but just don't violate the spirit of the commandment. It's illogical.

I see it like this. We rest spiritually in Christ every day. However, we are to rest physically and actually take time out for faith and family on the seventh day Sabbath. Then both the spirit of the law and the letter of the law are maintained.

TGBTG · #5 02-10-2012, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

That is a question that I've considered. My issue is that as with every law in God's Law we observe both the letter and the spirit of the commandment.

2 Cor 3
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

Rom 8:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter

Paul says we should not serve in the oldness of the letter

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

When it comes to the fourth commandment we are told to observe the spirit of the law but not the letter of the law. That, in my mind, is like saying that it's okay to violate the letter of the seventh commandment, but just don't violate the spirit of the commandment. It's illogical.

Yes, don't violate the spirit of the commandment is what I'm saying. If you don't violate the spirit of the command, there's no way you will be violating the letter of the command.
It's not possible to physically commit adultery without lust first occurring in the heart.
So if you don't violate the spirit of the command, it's not even possible to violate the letter of the command.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

I see it like this. We rest spiritually in Christ every day. However, we are to rest physically and actually take time out for faith and family on the seventh day Sabbath. Then both the spirit of the law and the letter of the law are maintained.

Rom 8:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

We can't serve in the oldness of the letter and the newness of the spirit together. It's either one or the other.

Gal 4
21Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

The Law given on Mount Sinai (The 10 commandments) gendereth unto BONDAGE bro!

TGBTG · #6 02-10-2012, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TGBTG

Yes, don't violate the spirit of the commandment is what I'm saying. If you don't violate the spirit of the command, there's no way you will be violating the letter of the command.

Aquila, I think the emboldened statement I made here is what caused you to think I was saying keeping the spirit of the law would lead to keeping the letter of the law.

I guess I chose the wrong choice of words. Maybe this would have been better:

If you are not IN VIOLATION of the spirit of the law, there's no way you are IN VIOLATION of the letter of the law.

So for the case of adultery, if you are not lusting, there's no way you are in adultery. Hope this clarifies my position better