Growing Faith

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Bro. Robbins

Please, with all due respect, don't use the Message to quote Scripture when talking doctrine....

Anyway, in regards to Jude 20, there is a comma there.. .

1. The Message IS a paraphrase (at least that's the term we OP's like to use for it) like The Living Bible was a few years ago. Any translation/version/paraphrase naturally reflects the opinion of the translators and includes any restrictions which may have been placed upon them by those authorizing or sponsoring the version. For example if I read a New World Version I have to remember that it is a Bible "translation" authorized by the Watchtower Society for use by Jehovah's Witnesses so I would expect it to promote JW doctrine like using "torture stake" for cross and "a god" for "God" in John 1:1. The King James Version was authorized by a pervert for use in the Anglican Church so we have to take into account that it is a version translated by trinitarians for use in a trinitarian church and had to please Anglican hierarchy before it could be published. For a couple of examples the term "Bishop" is used for "overseer," "baptism" is used instead of given the translation of "dip" or "immerse" or "overwhelm" and the phrase "God Save the King" is used which was a common term used in England at that time.
I am not KJV only but it is my favorite and has been for over half a century. I read several versions but basically use the KJV for a plumb line by which to measure other versions.

2. yeppers, there is a comma there in our KJV and also in other translations. I had to look at several before I found one (the Message) which made the edifying and the praying in the Spirit seem like one action instead of two out of three. It is my understanding that there were no commas in the Greek text so punctuation is something supplied by the translators and could reflect their own interpretation.

And, yes, I agree that there is no Scripture that tells us how to "grow" our faith. The reference to the Thessalonian saints given was from a letter from Paul to a young church. It may have been the second epistle he wrote (1 Thessalonians being the first and Galatians the third in the opinion of some) written shortly after 1 Thessalonians. Dates I have seen are:
1 Thessalonians written August AD 51 from Athens (ref Acts 17:14-15) or perhaps when he went on to Corinth in September AD 51 (ref Acts 18:1). 2 Thessalonians is considered to have been written shortly afterward (maybe while Paul was still in Athens) in response to some eschatology questions in the assembly at Thessalonica.

Anyway, in our KJV it does say "...your faith groweth..." so it seems like it is possible for faith to develop and grow. Then preachers get to theorize on how to make that happen.

[Bro. Robbins]

Originally Posted by Sam

1. The Message IS a paraphrase (at least that's the term we OP's like to use for it) like The Living Bible was a few years ago. Any translation/version/paraphrase naturally reflects the opinion of the translators and includes any restrictions which may have been placed upon them by those authorizing or sponsoring the version. For example if I read a New World Version I have to remember that it is a Bible "translation" authorized by the Watchtower Society for use by Jehovah's Witnesses so I would expect it to promote JW doctrine like using "torture stake" for cross and "a god" for "God" in John 1:1. The King James Version was authorized by a pervert for use in the Anglican Church so we have to take into account that it is a version translated by trinitarians for use in a trinitarian church and had to please Anglican hierarchy before it could be published. For a couple of examples the term "Bishop" is used for "overseer," "baptism" is used instead of given the translation of "dip" or "immerse" or "overwhelm" and the phrase "God Save the King" is used which was a common term used in England at that time.
I am not KJV only but it is my favorite and has been for over half a century. I read several versions but basically use the KJV for a plumb line by which to measure other versions.

2. yeppers, there is a comma there in our KJV and also in other translations. I had to look at several before I found one (the Message) which made the edifying and the praying in the Spirit seem like one action instead of two out of three. It is my understanding that there were no commas in the Greek text so punctuation is something supplied by the translators and could reflect their own interpretation.

And, yes, I agree that there is no Scripture that tells us how to "grow" our faith. The reference to the Thessalonian saints given was from a letter from Paul to a young church. It may have been the second epistle he wrote (1 Thessalonians being the first and Galatians the third in the opinion of some) written shortly after 1 Thessalonians. Dates I have seen are:
1 Thessalonians written August AD 51 from Athens (ref Acts 17:14-15) or perhaps when he went on to Corinth in September AD 51 (ref Acts 18:1). 2 Thessalonians is considered to have been written shortly afterward (maybe while Paul was still in Athens) in response to some eschatology questions in the assembly at Thessalonica.

Anyway, in our KJV it does say "...your faith groweth..." so it seems like it is possible for faith to develop and grow. Then preachers get to theorize on how to make that happen.

man I wish people would read what I say.... I never said you couldn't grow it... I said the only way to make faith increase is by the Word of God... according to the Scriptures. Exercising it, does not make it grow. I only find in the Word that Faith comes by hearing... faith only grows and is mulitplied by hearing the Word... by being in the Word...

[scotty]

Originally Posted by Bro. Robbins

man I wish people would read what I say.... I never said you couldn't grow it... I said the only way to make faith increase is by the Word of God... according to the Scriptures. Exercising it, does not make it grow. I only find in the Word that Faith comes by hearing... faith only grows and is mulitplied by hearing the Word... by being in the Word...

It may not be specifically defined in scripture, but can you give a reason why it wouldn't grow your faith?

If one exercises their faith and God is faithful in return, why would one's faith NOT grow?

Would you not think that the woman with the issue of blood's faith would not increase after she was healed? If faith is the belief in things not seen or not known, is it still just a belief when they are proven? The woman had faith that if she could just touch the hem of his garment she would be healed. Did she KNOW for sure that she would be healed? No, she simply had faith that she would be. Only afterwards was that faith confirmed.

[Bro. Robbins]

Originally Posted by scotty

It may not be specifically defined in scripture, but can you give a reason why it wouldn't grow your faith?

If one exercises their faith and God is faithful in return, why would one's faith NOT grow?

Would you not think that the woman with the issue of blood's faith would not increase after she was healed? If faith is the belief in things not seen or not known, is it still just a belief when they are proven? The woman had faith that if she could just touch the hem of his garment she would be healed. Did she KNOW for sure that she would be healed? No, she simply had faith that she would be. Only afterwards was that faith confirmed.

Unless the Word says it... you cannot make a doctrine out of it... that's simple exegesis and proper use of the Word. One cannot bring forth a teaching (doctrine) just because it sounds reasonable, logical or makes sense to them. But if you want to use reason and logic, I can go completely the opposite way as well and make a point. Do you not think that building faith is important to God? And don't you think He would include in His Word all the ways to build it and increase it and see it grow? And not just one, and make you guess the subtle inferences of the others? If God took time to tell us one way to grow it, He's tell us them all.

See how ludicrous it is to build a teaching off some kind of "doesn't it just make sense?" The Word is spiritual, not carnal... cannot be understood carnally or logically.

Lastly, the woman with the issue of blood would not be a good example, as she received the "word" from Jesus that she would be healed.... so faith did come by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God... in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God, and was with God..... He declared to her that she was healed... it wasn't some prophet or teacher doing it... therefore, that's not a good example to prove your concept.

[HRea]

Originally Posted by Bro. Robbins

Unless the Word says it... you cannot make a doctrine out of it... that's simple exegesis and proper use of the Word. One cannot bring forth a teaching (doctrine) just because it sounds reasonable, logical or makes sense to them. But if you want to use reason and logic, I can go completely the opposite way as well and make a point. Do you not think that building faith is important to God? And don't you think He would include in His Word all the ways to build it and increase it and see it grow? And not just one, and make you guess the subtle inferences of the others? If God took time to tell us one way to grow it, He's tell us them all.

See how ludicrous it is to build a teaching off some kind of "doesn't it just make sense?" The Word is spiritual, not carnal... cannot be understood carnally or logically.

Lastly, the woman with the issue of blood would not be a good example, as she received the "word" from Jesus that she would be healed.... so faith did come by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God... in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God, and was with God..... He declared to her that she was healed... it wasn't some prophet or teacher doing it... therefore, that's not a good example to prove your concept.

Actually the account of the woman who was healed is an excellent example. It's also a good example of why there are multiple Gospels to compare. In Luke's account, it's the woman who declares to Jesus that she was healed by touching His garment, not the other way around. She knew she was healed because she stopped bleeding. Mark confirms this by recording that she knew what was done in her before she spoke with Jesus.

Luke 8:46-47
46 And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me.
47 And when the woman saw that she was not hid, she came trembling, and falling down before him, she declared unto him before all the people for what cause she had touched him and how she was healed immediately.

Mark 5:33 But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth.

However, what is really exciting about this is Matthew's account (Matthew 9:20-22), which by all indications lacks the detail of Mark and Luke's recording, but includes a very notable event based on the woman touching the hem of His garment:

Matthew 14:35-36
35 And when the men of that place had knowledge of him, they sent out into all that country round about, and brought unto him all that were diseased;
36 And besought him that they might only touch the hem of his garment: and as many as touched were made perfectly whole.

Jesus' fame spread, but it wasn't the pure, written Word; it was only tales and accounts. Based on these tales and account alone, the men of Gannesaret believed that Jesus could do for them (chapter 14) what He did for the woman back in chapter 9; by touching the hem of His garment, they were made perfectly whole.

I guess that would be a third way to increase faith - increasing faith based on someone's testimony - as we can see very clearly from the account of the woman with the issue of blood.

[Bro. Robbins]

Originally Posted by HRea

Actually the account of the woman who was healed is an excellent example. It's also a good example of why there are multiple Gospels to compare. In Luke's account, it's the woman who declares to Jesus that she was healed by touching His garment, not the other way around. She knew she was healed because she stopped bleeding. Mark confirms this by recording that she knew what was done in her before she spoke with Jesus.

Luke 8:46-47
46 And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me.
47 And when the woman saw that she was not hid, she came trembling, and falling down before him, she declared unto him before all the people for what cause she had touched him and how she was healed immediately.

Mark 5:33 But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth.

However, what is really exciting about this is Matthew's account (Matthew 9:20-22), which by all indications lacks the detail of Mark and Luke's recording, but includes a very notable event based on the woman touching the hem of His garment:

Matthew 14:35-36
35 And when the men of that place had knowledge of him, they sent out into all that country round about, and brought unto him all that were diseased;
36 And besought him that they might only touch the hem of his garment: and as many as touched were made perfectly whole.

Jesus' fame spread, but it wasn't the pure, written Word; it was only tales and accounts. Based on these tales and account alone, the men of Gannesaret believed that Jesus could do for them (chapter 14) what He did for the woman back in chapter 9; by touching the hem of His garment, they were made perfectly whole.

I guess that would be a third way to increase faith - increasing faith based on someone's testimony - as we can see very clearly from the account of the woman with the issue of blood.

You've given some great Bible study, but not proved where faith is increased any other way than by hearing and hearing by the Word. Jesus' fame being spread has nothing to do with people's faith increasing. And you still didn't prove it with the woman and the issue of blood... sorry, just doesn't prove it. Relationship may increase, belief may even increase... excitement... zeal... but not faith.

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by Bro. Robbins

You've given some great Bible study, but not proved where faith is increased any other way than by hearing and hearing by the Word. Jesus' fame being spread has nothing to do with people's faith increasing. And you still didn't prove it with the woman and the issue of blood... sorry, just doesn't prove it. Relationship may increase, belief may even increase... excitement... zeal... but not faith.

I'm surprised you would take this position.
Strangely, it is the insistence on "proof"
that is swaying me--I'm strongly disliking this
"ignore sense and trust proof" thing?
Smacks too much of how the very elect
might be deceived, imo.

2 Thess 1:3
New Living Translation (©2007)
Dear brothers and sisters, we can't help but thank God for you, because your faith is flourishing and your love for one another is growing.

English Standard Version (©2001)
We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers, as is right, because your faith is growing abundantly, and the love of every one of you for one another is increasing.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brethren, as is only fitting, because your faith is greatly enlarged, and the love of each one of you toward one another grows ever greater;

How was their faith increasing? They had no NT, and very few OT's?
Were they relying on spoken Word? Solely?

[HRea]

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

Nice; Amen. A tough step for a Western Christian. I'm persuaded that growing faith is diff from getting faith, even if they both essentially reduce to "hearing," which has little or nothing to do with your physical ears.

I agree. Western Christianity is in danger of becoming apathetic toward the kingdom of Jesus Christ. True discipleship requires rejecting the things of this world which will require great sacrifice on the part of the disciple. This is where it becomes difficult.

Getting Faith equals a response to hearing for the first time (ie hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ, or listening to someone relate a testimony concerning a realized possibility within the kingdom). This is why I included a short side trip about the woman with the issue of blood and the men of Gannesaret. They heard about the woman's miracle, responded, and received healings of their own.

Growing Faith is exercising the faith you already have.

Hearing and doing is the way we grow.

Originally Posted by Bro. Robbins

You've given some great Bible study, but not proved where faith is increased any other way than by hearing and hearing by the Word. Jesus' fame being spread has nothing to do with people's faith increasing. And you still didn't prove it with the woman and the issue of blood... sorry, just doesn't prove it. Relationship may increase, belief may even increase... excitement... zeal... but not faith.

I marvel at your response; either you are playing devil's advocate and being contentious as a means to provoke a discussion, or you're not actually seeking an answer and are dismissive of any of the scriptures posted. In either case, you're working very hard not to understand the responses given. Your constant referral to "hearing the Word" as the only means of growing faith shows a lack of understanding in what that truly means.

There are 3 outcomes that the Bible teaches about "hearing the Word" (and Word hear is specific to the Word of God - not testimonies or accounts):

1. Outright rejection - this leads to damnation
2. Hearing, acceptance, but no response - this leads to becoming dull of hearing and necessitates the need for foundational teaching to be repeated over and again. There is no forward progress and no growth.
3. Hearing, acceptance, and a response - this leads to our faith being increased and our ability to hear greater teachings and mysteries.

Jesus admonishing His disciples in Luke 17, and the passage in Hebrews 5 makes it very clear that "hearing the word" is not enough to increase your faith. Those that are hearers only are called weak, unskillful, and unprofitable servants.