Repentance, Holiness, and the Church

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by JamDat

NO, no, no. You said that you believe "be perfect" is achievable. Who besides Jesus Christ was perfect? Who was perfect with out spot or blemish and be the lamb?

You think you can achieve a state of perfection? Not according to the bible. God through the death of Jesus Christ to atone for your sin can make you perfect, but that is not you achieving it now is it?

So lets go back to all those good muslims and how they're getting to heaven if they pass the test of Jesus, but not the test that we would take because the Word of God has been corrupted. Here is the test. Submit to Jesus Christ or not? Answer yes = pass, answer no = fail.

Obviously Jesus was and is and always be perfect. All saints before being born again have sinned and were not perfect. Can a Christian be perfect toward God as concerning his works?

Answer:

We better be.

Why?

Jesus said :

1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write ; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest , and art dead. 2 Be watchful , and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die : for I have not found thy works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard , and hold fast , and repent . If therefore thou shalt not watch , I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. 4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. 5 He that overcometh , the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Rev. 3:1-5

Only those who are overcomers will not be blotted out of the book of life.

Jesus counsels his Church to get right. Make their works perfect. Be overcomers. Only such people will be accepted by him.

[JamDat]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Obviously Jesus was and is and always be perfect. All saints before being born again have sinned and were not perfect. Can a Christian be perfect toward God as concerning his works?

Answer:

We better be.

Why?

Jesus said :

1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write ; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest , and art dead. 2 Be watchful , and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die : for I have not found thy works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard , and hold fast , and repent . If therefore thou shalt not watch , I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. 4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. 5 He that overcometh , the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Rev. 3:1-5

Only those who are overcomers will not be blotted out of the book of life.

Jesus counsels his Church to get right. Make their works perfect. Be overcomers. Only such people will be accepted by him.

Unless I'm reading wrong (which I may be doing,) Bbyrd seems to be saying that good works will save you. I'm not talking about the church which should obviously be different than the unsaved.

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by JamDat

Unless I'm reading wrong (which I may be doing,) Bbyrd seems to be saying that good works will save you. I'm not talking about the church which should obviously be different than the unsaved.

Hmm, my best answer there is that I read all the same verses you do;
we have "the separation" parable, wherein many surprised sheep,
who never did any steps, are "in," and "a good deed covers many sins..."
Which should be taken in context with other verses.

So, will good works save one? I read the endless, mostly circular arguments about this, and I'm not sure that that is the right Q, or the right way to ask what needs asking there.

I pretty much agree w/MTD, but another aspect that I think gets little attention is that as humans we imagine these things--salvation, born again, repentance, redemption, etc.--to be instantaneous things that happen with some words, right? Which I seriously doubt.

Accepting Christ, to me, is not something you do with your mouth;
although there is certainly meaning in public confession.
I think our walk is reflected in our children's progress thru life?
Toddlers get a grace that a kid who is 16 and should know better
does not; or should not. At a certain point, dad realizes it's better to let 'em spend the night in jail.

I've skipped around editing these paragraphs, so sorry if they're disconnected.

[JamDat]

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

Hmm, my best answer there is that I read all the same verses you do;
we have "the separation" parable, wherein many surprised sheep,
who never did any steps, are "in," and "a good deed covers many sins..."
Which should be taken in context with other verses.

So, will good works save one? I read the endless, mostly circular arguments about this, and I'm not sure that that is the right Q, or the right way to ask what needs asking there.

I pretty much agree w/MTD, but another aspect that I think gets little attention is that as humans we imagine these things--salvation, born again, repentance, redemption, etc.--to be instantaneous things that happen with some words, right? Which I seriously doubt.

Accepting Christ, to me, is not something you do with your mouth;
although there is certainly meaning in public confession.
I think our walk is reflected in our children's progress thru life?
Toddlers get a grace that a kid who is 16 and should know better
does not; or should not. At a certain point, dad realizes it's better to let 'em spend the night in jail.

I've skipped around editing these paragraphs, so sorry if they're disconnected.

Except that you seem to think that those are His children even before any of what you've listed. Unless one has repented, unless one is born again they are not His children and therefore can not grow in Christ. When they are born again then yes I agree there is learning and sanctification which is life long.

Also it's not a person accepting Jesus, it's Jesus accepting that person.

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by JamDat

Except that you seem to think that those are His children even before any of what you've listed. Unless one has repented, unless one is born again they are not His children and therefore can not grow in Christ. When they are born again then yes I agree there is learning and sanctification which is life long.

Also it's not a person accepting Jesus, it's Jesus accepting that person.

Those words indicate a certain path to be followed, words to be said,
that are the definition for you, and most Christians. While I whole-heartedly
agree with the words, the Separation tells me that the definition is
lacking. This is religion, to me; "We'll interpret and define God for all, and all better get with our definition." This is doomed.

The last line there; what might keep Christ from accepting one who has accepted Christ?

[JamDat]

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

Those words indicate a certain path to be followed, words to be said,
that are the definition for you, and most Christians. While I whole-heartedly
agree with the words, the Separation tells me that the definition is
lacking. This is religion, to me; "We'll interpret and define God for all, and all better get with our definition." This is doomed.

The last line there; what might keep Christ from accepting one who has accepted Christ?

The wrong jesus or the wrong gospel.

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by JamDat

The wrong jesus or the wrong gospel.

There are only one of each, but their definitions are larger than
our words for them. We are told that many or most who have said the words that you surely associate with "salvation" will be in hell, meaning "Jesus" and "Gospel" were not accepted. Your Jesus and your Gospel.