I wish preachers would....

[samuelofisrael]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Chapter and verse that teaches Elders and Pastors are two different offices? New Testament please.

I said nothing about an "office," in fact, the elders are part of the church's congregational ministry. They are permitted to teach if they are so gifted. A "pastor" [one of the elders] is part of the five fold ministry if a truely called and gifted man anointed of the Holy Spirit.

As far as the FIVE FOLD ministry is concerned:

Eph 4:11-13

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Paul further states: " ... are all apostles, ....?"

1 Co 12:28-29

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

In the case of "elders" we find: "ruling well," "worthy of double honor," "apt to teach," ordained of the apostles.

In the setting of DIVINE ORDER in the NT Church the "apostles AND the elders" are mentioned together. It is always a plurality, never the thought of a one man rule that is so prevelant in many congregations, especially those of a certain doctrinal conviction.

As far as a different office is concerned, it would seem [from Holy Writ] that the Five Fold is ministries chosen by the Holy Spirit exclusively but the plurality of the elders are ordained of the fellowship which recognizes the anointing of the Holy Spirit in their lives.

Paul catatorically states:

1 Co 12:28-13:1

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Surely we must see a distinction between the God chosen FIVE FOLD ministry and the ministry of gifts of healing, tongues and interpretation, etc. Many of the charismata can be operative in the NT Church but those who have those gifts [if they in fact do] are not necessarily pastors, teachers or apostles. Even those who operate in the charismata may not be an elder tho it is not impossible.

A pastor is surely one of the elders of the congregation but the "elders" are not therefore the pastor per se tho the elders can teach and be worthy of double honor should "he" labor in the Word and Doctrine.

Is there a "distinction" between the God called FIVE FOLD and the eldership? I would say so gauging by what ALL is taught in the NT.

Acts 14:23 points out the ordination of elders by the congregation. As in the case of "deacons," [helpers], they were chosen of the church.

Ac 6:3

3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.

One [if discerning] can see the distinction between a God called man to the APOSTOLIC FIVE FOLD ministry and deacons or even elders. It is possible that an elder can rise to the ministry of pastor if so chosen by the congregation.

In the Acts narrative we find, "apostles AND elders" mentioned at least six times as a distinction. But in the case of the Apostle Peter who was both called to the FIVE FOLD ministry, he too was one of the "elders" as I have mentioned.

One of the FIVE FOLD can be and it would follow that they are of the eldership but the "elders" would not necessarily be of the FIVE FOLD ministry. There are distinctions in all the minstries, talents, gifts, callings, anointings.

Is there a distinction between a "pastor" and the "elders" its effectual outworking and calling?

Surely there is, both as revealed in Holy Writ and common practice. Is there a distinction in gifts? Yes. Are all apostles? Are all teachers? Are all elders? Do all have the gifts of healing? The answere CANNOT be YES but NO. So is there a difference between those gifted men called of God as pastors and those ordained as "elders." There are congregations today that have elders. Elders as in the plurality, never a congregational one man rule.

Finally, a pastor can be one of the elders as in the case of Peter. But an elder is not necessarily a pastor or an apostle or an evangelist or a teacher but can have ability to labor in doctrine and the Word. Distinctions, plurality of elders, differing giftings, FIVE FOLD ministry, deacons are all taught as APOSTOLIC NT ministries. Why would we want it any differently?

ONLY THE SCRIPTURES CORRECTLY EXEGETED IS THE WORD OF GOD.