Money

[Sister Alvear]

Whether we call it tithes or whatever missionaries have to live on help from others...I am not debating tithes but talking about responsibility using God's money...

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

Whether we call it tithes or whatever missionaries have to live on help from others...I am not debating tithes but talking about responsibility using God's money...

I'm sure you are a honest hearted good person. I know people who know your family personally and I've never heard anything but good about your ministry. I hope you're not taking my criticism of the religious system personally, but paying tithes to a man in a man made system just isn't scriptural at all.

Concerning missionaries, when does the local body of believers begin to support themselves? There have been missionaries of hundreds of denominations going to Africa and South America for decades and decades, by the thousands, and yet the local assemblies aren't able to support themselves? Why isn't the gospel working for them after all these years. What's wrong?

Again, I'm not attacking you personally, but the missionary business is just another division of the big business of religion. If the gospel isn't working enough to free the people from poverty then the wrong gospel is being preached.

[hometown guy]

Originally Posted by seekerman

I'm sure you are a honest hearted good person. I know people who know your family personally and I've never heard anything but good about your ministry. I hope you're not taking my criticism of the religious system personally, but paying tithes to a man in a man made system just isn't scriptural at all.

Concerning missionaries, when does the local body of believers begin to support themselves? There have been missionaries of hundreds of denominations going to Africa and South America for decades and decades, by the thousands, and yet the local assemblies aren't able to support themselves? Why isn't the gospel working for them after all these years. What's wrong?

Again, I'm not attacking you personally, but the missionary business is just another division of the big business of religion. If the gospel isn't working enough to free the people from poverty then the wrong gospel is being preached.

Where is this found in the bible?

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by hometown guy

[/B]

Where is this found in the bible?

Here's a few of dozens and dozens and dozens.

3Jn 1:2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

Pro 3:9 Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase: 10 So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.

Ecc 5:19 Every man also to whom God hath given riches and wealth, and hath given him power to eat thereof, and to take his portion, and to rejoice in his labour; this is the gift of God.

Mar 10:29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, 30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

[Sister Alvear]

Originally Posted by seekerman

I'm sure you are a honest hearted good person. I know people who know your family personally and I've never heard anything but good about your ministry. I hope you're not taking my criticism of the religious system personally, but paying tithes to a man in a man made system just isn't scriptural at all.

Concerning missionaries, when does the local body of believers begin to support themselves? There have been missionaries of hundreds of denominations going to Africa and South America for decades and decades, by the thousands, and yet the local assemblies aren't able to support themselves? Why isn't the gospel working for them after all these years. What's wrong?

Again, I'm not attacking you personally, but the missionary business is just another division of the big business of religion. If the gospel isn't working enough to free the people from poverty then the wrong gospel is being preached.

That is a good question with no doubt many opinions. I will give my opinion

When I was very young maybe 15 or so I read a book about China. The book told of what happened to christian churches in when communist took over and for the most part the churches that depended upon American money to survive closed down because they did not know how to survive on their on. I already felt in my heart that I would be a missionary and decided in my own heart that if I could I would try to plant a native church in Brazil that would support itself.

I did not know how hard that would be at that time but after becoming a missionary that is the route I took and 4 years later I married on the field someone that felt the same.

So briefly this is how we have worked...We started churches with that goal in mind and slowly worked toward it. Today the work is very big yet at least 95 % of the work takes care of themselves...We try to help on new projects and in new areas. For example where we started the work (state of Sao Paulo) we have probably 75 works and they are all self supporting and in turn many of them help support national missionaries that are sent out with the same goal and purpose.

Another state that is now self supporting is the state of Minas Gerias and the state where we live now is almost there.

Many states such as Bahia, Mato Grosso, and Para are self supporting.

We have a national missionary in the state of Ceara that is supported by some of the churches here and Brother Alvear and I were just up there with them not long ago. They are working on becoming self supporting and within a year should reach their goal.

Our son Arlei moved 5 years ago to the lower basin of the Amazon jungle area and we helped him along with the nationals get started and he has built 5 churches along with several preaching points and the churches are self supporting. He is not self supporting yet but should be within the next two years. We helped him buy a little plot of jungle land where he is planting their rice and beans (main food here) someone from America (one of those little ladies I talked about helped him buy a cow) As soon as they get a better water system he feels they too will not have to be helped with outside money. Which is really very little. I personally feel that within 2 years that they will become self supporting and help support other works from there.

The work in Brazil supports a small mission outreach in the country of Paraguay and we help in a small way in the Philippines...The work in the Philippines that we oversee is also now self supporting.

Several of our pastors came to us last year they see our health is failing and they hate for us to have to come to America. They asked us how much money we needed for the church of Brazil to help us out because they want us to die there with them....

Brother Alvear and I hold no office other than a spiritual office of being their mother and father in the Lord.

Right now we are in the states for a couple ladies meeting and a special service in Louisiana. We try to pay our own way as we go along and not be a burden to others.

I PERSONALLY do not believe in American owned churches in foreign countries...but that is just me. I respect those of other opinions but I believe he national church is the Bible way. However I am so aware of the pros and cons on both sides of the fence...

I know missionaries that put rules on the walls of their churches because of the group they belong to and NOT because of a biblical doctrine..so their people will look just like the Americans that support them...well money flows in (sometimes Americans are so dumb and please excuse me for being so plain) but as soon as the money is gone...the little so called doctrines also go out the door because they were just doing certain things for American money....

People have to become converted in Christ Jesus not some man made organization...The cross is denial of the flesh and followering Jesus should not be for money or material gain.

I know missionaries that are rich!

Years ago when we had a house full of children and things were very tight...one day my phone rang and it was a missionary that called me to tell me they were leaving Brazil. We talked a little while and at the end of our conversation she said to me, Sister Janice I just wanted to call you and tell you, I could not live like you all do without knowing from one day to the next what we will eat and how much money that will come in but just want you to know you all are a real example of Bible missionaries...
Wow...that meant a lot to me...

I think a real missionary"s goal is to work themselves out of a job! Since the word missionary is not in the Bible I really think a missionary is a planter...However there are many ways to plant...some do like we do and work making Jesus known...then moving on to another village, another city and so forth...others work all their lives translating the Bible in Indian languages and helping wherever needed.

Well...it is early and I think I have rambled....lol...feel free to ask me any questions conceding how we work or anything like that. I will do my best to answer...Over the years we have taught classes that has nothing to do with the Bible but yet in another way has a lot to do with the Bible...Classes such as soap making, planting gardens, music, English, bread making and all kinds of things...we have bought sewing machines for different areas...helped our son buy brick molds to make bricks, sent some through collage to help them have a way of supporting themselves...just on and on....

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

That is a good question with no doubt many opinions. I will give my opinion

When I was very young maybe 15 or so I read a book about China. The book told of what happened to christian churches in when communist took over and for the most part the churches that depended upon American money to survive closed down because they did not know how to survive on their on. I already felt in my heart that I would be a missionary and decided in my own heart that if I could I would try to plant a native church in Brazil that would support itself.

I did not know how hard that would be at that time but after becoming a missionary that is the route I took and 4 years later I married on the field someone that felt the same.

So briefly this is how we have worked...We started churches with that goal in mind and slowly worked toward it. Today the work is very big yet at least 95 % of the work takes care of themselves...We try to help on new projects and in new areas. For example where we started the work (state of Sao Paulo) we have probably 75 works and they are all self supporting and in turn many of them help support national missionaries that are sent out with the same goal and purpose.

Another state that is now self supporting is the state of Minas Gerias and the state where we live now is almost there.

Many states such as Bahia, Mato Grosso, and Para are self supporting.

We have a national missionary in the state of Ceara that is supported by some of the churches here and Brother Alvear and I were just up there with them not long ago. They are working on becoming self supporting and within a year should reach their goal.

Our son Arlei moved 5 years ago to the lower basin of the Amazon jungle area and we helped him along with the nationals get started and he has built 5 churches along with several preaching points and the churches are self supporting. He is not self supporting yet but should be within the next two years. We helped him buy a little plot of jungle land where he is planting their rice and beans (main food here) someone from America (one of those little ladies I talked about helped him buy a cow) As soon as they get a better water system he feels they too will not have to be helped with outside money. Which is really very little. I personally feel that within 2 years that they will become self supporting and help support other works from there.

The work in Brazil supports a small mission outreach in the country of Paraguay and we help in a small way in the Philippines...The work in the Philippines that we oversee is also now self supporting.

Several of our pastors came to us last year they see our health is failing and they hate for us to have to come to America. They asked us how much money we needed for the church of Brazil to help us out because they want us to die there with them....

Brother Alvear and I hold no office other than a spiritual office of being their mother and father in the Lord.

Right now we are in the states for a couple ladies meeting and a special service in Louisiana. We try to pay our own way as we go along and not be a burden to others.

I PERSONALLY do not believe in American owned churches in foreign countries...but that is just me. I respect those of other opinions but I believe he national church is the Bible way. However I am so aware of the pros and cons on both sides of the fence...

I know missionaries that put rules on the walls of their churches because of the group they belong to and NOT because of a biblical doctrine..so their people will look just like the Americans that support them...well money flows in (sometimes Americans are so dumb and please excuse me for being so plain) but as soon as the money is gone...the little so called doctrines also go out the door because they were just doing certain things for American money....

People have to become converted in Christ Jesus not some man made organization...The cross is denial of the flesh and followering Jesus should not be for money or material gain.

I know missionaries that are rich!

Years ago when we had a house full of children and things were very tight...one day my phone rang and it was a missionary that called me to tell me they were leaving Brazil. We talked a little while and at the end of our conversation she said to me, Sister Janice I just wanted to call you and tell you, I could not live like you all do without knowing from one day to the next what we will eat and how much money that will come in but just want you to know you all are a real example of Bible missionaries...
Wow...that meant a lot to me...

I think a real missionary"s goal is to work themselves out of a job! Since the word missionary is not in the Bible I really think a missionary is a planter...However there are many ways to plant...some do like we do and work making Jesus known...then moving on to another village, another city and so forth...others work all their lives translating the Bible in Indian languages and helping wherever needed.

Well...it is early and I think I have rambled....lol...feel free to ask me any questions conceding how we work or anything like that. I will do my best to answer...Over the years we have taught classes that has nothing to do with the Bible but yet in another way has a lot to do with the Bible...Classes such as soap making, planting gardens, music, English, bread making and all kinds of things...we have bought sewing machines for different areas...helped our son buy brick molds to make bricks, sent some through collage to help them have a way of supporting themselves...just on and on....

Well said, Sister Alvear.

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

That is a good question with no doubt many opinions. I will give my opinion

When I was very young maybe 15 or so I read a book about China. The book told of what happened to christian churches in when communist took over and for the most part the churches that depended upon American money to survive closed down because they did not know how to survive on their on. I already felt in my heart that I would be a missionary and decided in my own heart that if I could I would try to plant a native church in Brazil that would support itself.

I did not know how hard that would be at that time but after becoming a missionary that is the route I took and 4 years later I married on the field someone that felt the same.

So briefly this is how we have worked...We started churches with that goal in mind and slowly worked toward it. Today the work is very big yet at least 95 % of the work takes care of themselves...We try to help on new projects and in new areas. For example where we started the work (state of Sao Paulo) we have probably 75 works and they are all self supporting and in turn many of them help support national missionaries that are sent out with the same goal and purpose.

Another state that is now self supporting is the state of Minas Gerias and the state where we live now is almost there.

Many states such as Bahia, Mato Grosso, and Para are self supporting.

We have a national missionary in the state of Ceara that is supported by some of the churches here and Brother Alvear and I were just up there with them not long ago. They are working on becoming self supporting and within a year should reach their goal.

Our son Arlei moved 5 years ago to the lower basin of the Amazon jungle area and we helped him along with the nationals get started and he has built 5 churches along with several preaching points and the churches are self supporting. He is not self supporting yet but should be within the next two years. We helped him buy a little plot of jungle land where he is planting their rice and beans (main food here) someone from America (one of those little ladies I talked about helped him buy a cow) As soon as they get a better water system he feels they too will not have to be helped with outside money. Which is really very little. I personally feel that within 2 years that they will become self supporting and help support other works from there.

The work in Brazil supports a small mission outreach in the country of Paraguay and we help in a small way in the Philippines...The work in the Philippines that we oversee is also now self supporting.

Several of our pastors came to us last year they see our health is failing and they hate for us to have to come to America. They asked us how much money we needed for the church of Brazil to help us out because they want us to die there with them....

Brother Alvear and I hold no office other than a spiritual office of being their mother and father in the Lord.

Right now we are in the states for a couple ladies meeting and a special service in Louisiana. We try to pay our own way as we go along and not be a burden to others.

I PERSONALLY do not believe in American owned churches in foreign countries...but that is just me. I respect those of other opinions but I believe he national church is the Bible way. However I am so aware of the pros and cons on both sides of the fence...

I know missionaries that put rules on the walls of their churches because of the group they belong to and NOT because of a biblical doctrine..so their people will look just like the Americans that support them...well money flows in (sometimes Americans are so dumb and please excuse me for being so plain) but as soon as the money is gone...the little so called doctrines also go out the door because they were just doing certain things for American money....

People have to become converted in Christ Jesus not some man made organization...The cross is denial of the flesh and followering Jesus should not be for money or material gain.

I know missionaries that are rich!

Years ago when we had a house full of children and things were very tight...one day my phone rang and it was a missionary that called me to tell me they were leaving Brazil. We talked a little while and at the end of our conversation she said to me, Sister Janice I just wanted to call you and tell you, I could not live like you all do without knowing from one day to the next what we will eat and how much money that will come in but just want you to know you all are a real example of Bible missionaries...
Wow...that meant a lot to me...

I think a real missionary"s goal is to work themselves out of a job! Since the word missionary is not in the Bible I really think a missionary is a planter...However there are many ways to plant...some do like we do and work making Jesus known...then moving on to another village, another city and so forth...others work all their lives translating the Bible in Indian languages and helping wherever needed.

Well...it is early and I think I have rambled....lol...feel free to ask me any questions conceding how we work or anything like that. I will do my best to answer...Over the years we have taught classes that has nothing to do with the Bible but yet in another way has a lot to do with the Bible...Classes such as soap making, planting gardens, music, English, bread making and all kinds of things...we have bought sewing machines for different areas...helped our son buy brick molds to make bricks, sent some through collage to help them have a way of supporting themselves...just on and on....

Great stories of faith Sis Alvear and you should be commended for your dedication to your calling. I'm sure it's been a labor of love for you and your family and may the Lord bless you for it.

I guess what I'm seeing though is resulting in questioning the need to continue sending missionaries to countries such as Africa, South America and Mexico for, in some cases, hundreds of years now. I realize that the common people (and I don't say that disparagingly) in those areas are most likely living in poverty that we here in America can only imagine, not seeing it for ourselves. But the gospel should change that. The gospel is more than preaching so that individuals will miss hell, the gospel should also prosper and improve an individual's life. It should give hope of a better life, and not just a hope but a reality. After hundreds of years of preaching by various religious sects, it seems to me that the gospel isn't raising the standard of living for those who are placing their faith in Jesus Christ for whatever reason.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by seekerman

Great stories of faith Sis Alvear and you should be commended for your dedication to your calling. I'm sure it's been a labor of love for you and your family and may the Lord bless you for it.

I guess what I'm seeing though is resulting in questioning the need to continue sending missionaries to countries such as Africa, South America and Mexico for, in some cases, hundreds of years now. I realize that the common people (and I don't say that disparagingly) in those areas are most likely living in poverty that we here in America can only imagine, not seeing it for ourselves. But the gospel should change that. The gospel is more than preaching so that individuals will miss hell, the gospel should also prosper and improve an individual's life. It should give hope of a better life, and not just a hope but a reality. After hundreds of years of preaching by various religious sects, it seems to me that the gospel isn't raising the standard of living for those who are placing their faith in Jesus Christ for whatever reason.

It is good to always ask questions... if questions are never asked, then there will never be an answer.

One scripture I am thinking of in regards to why the gospel has not changed these countries that missionaries are taking the gospel to, is this one where Jesus said in Matthew 26:11 "...for ye have the poor always with you." Not meaning to take this scripture out of context for he was speaking to Judas who was angry that the money used to annoint his head was not sold and the $ given to the poor. And then Jesus responded with... the poor shall always be with you....

So that makes me think that Christ knew that was why we should always be willing to give to others in need, because poverty is something that could happen to us at any time. A job loss, illness, accident etc., could change our lives forever, and we could be at someone else's mercy.

According as we give to those in need, so we ought to be willing to give a chance for those to hear the gospel who have never heard it before.

Just my thoughts on the matter....