Something interesting about gays.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

I don't agree that this is a universal staement.
There are homosexuals who are not narcissistic, but are hurting, confused.

Narcissism means love of self; Coonskinner was pulling that from the idea that a homosexual man is attracted to his own physical image rather than the opposite sex. (likewise with a lesbian)

The fact that sin leaves people hurt and confused is par for the sinful course; that doesn't mean the initial choices aren't any less selfish or self-serving. Sin is only pleasurable temporarily; then it becomes painful and destructive. In the beginning, it can be pleasurable--which is why human beings choose sin over and over and have since the beginning of time.

Of course sin leaves people hurting and confused. That's one of the reasons I so strongly object to any religious teaching that allows people to remain in sin and still be saved--because sin is universally destructive--even if you are told that God is okay with it and you feel some sort of acceptance in your religious circle. The sin itself will still eat away at your spirit, mind and body, and you will still find yourself hurt and confused in the end. Shame on any minister who seeks to allow people to remain in their sins and feel good about themselves spiritually. That man is seeking to allow people to remain in destruction instead of being an overcomer.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Narcissism means love of self; Coonskinner was pulling that from the idea that a homosexual man is attracted to his own physical image rather than the opposite sex. (likewise with a lesbian)

The fact that sin leaves people hurt and confused is par for the sinful course; that doesn't mean the initial choices aren't any less selfish or self-serving. Sin is only pleasurable temporarily; then it becomes painful and destructive. In the beginning, it can be pleasurable--which is why human beings choose sin over and over and have since the beginning of time.

Of course sin leaves people hurting and confused. That's one of the reasons I so strongly object to any religious teaching that allows people to remain in sin and still be saved--because sin is universally destructive--even if you are told that God is okay with it and you feel some sort of acceptance in your religious circle. The sin itself will still eat away at your spirit, mind and body, and you will still find yourself hurt and confused in the end. Shame on any minister who seeks to allow people to remain in their sins and feel good about themselves spiritually. That man is seeking to allow people to remain in destruction instead of being an overcomer.

This makes no sense to me......what about men who are attracted to masculine women, and women who are attracted to effeminate men? Are they homosexual?

Homesxuality is no more narcissism than men who are attracted to women who look like them, and vice versa!

What about men who are attracted to women who are just like their mothers? Are they guilty of incest?

Come on......

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

This makes no sense to me......what about men who are attracted to masculine women, and women who are attracted to effeminate men? Are they homosexual?

What does that have to do with being attracted to the same gender? A body type isn't anywhere close to being a "gender." A man is a man, whether he is skinny or buff; a woman is a woman whether she's soft everywhere or has muscles.

Homesxuality is no more narcissism than men who are attracted to women who look like them, and vice versa!

I don't know. Narcissism is love of self; I think it makes sense, or at least interjects an interesting line of thought. Sin is narcissistic in general, though. (self-serving) It's interesting in the sense that it examines the psychosis behind homosexuality, rather than simply the actions. We aren't animals, you know; our behavior isn't simply instinctive. We have reasoning power, logic and the ability to choose. How a person chooses reveals more than just their "animal attractions."

What about men who are attracted to women who are just like their mothers? Are they guilty of incest?

They're only guilty of incest if they actually have sex with their mothers, I suppose. I don't think I get your point on this one.....

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

What does that have to do with being attracted to the same gender? A body type isn't anywhere close to being a "gender." A man is a man, whether he is skinny or buff; a woman is a woman whether she's soft everywhere or has muscles.



I don't know. Narcissism is love of self; I think it makes sense, or at least interjects an interesting line of thought. Sin is narcissistic in general, though. (self-serving) It's interesting in the sense that it examines the psychosis behind homosexuality, rather than simply the actions. We aren't animals, you know; our behavior isn't simply instinctive. We have reasoning power, logic and the ability to choose. How a person chooses reveals more than just their "animal attractions."



They're only guilty of incest if they actually have sex with their mothers, I suppose. I don't think I get your point on this one.....

My point is that if someone is attracted to someone else because they resemble themselves (kind of confusing, but you know what I mean) then I may understand the narcissism comment.

But to say that a man is attracted to another man because he has the same anatomy has absolutely nothing to do with narcissism, in my mind.

Here's one of the definitions of narcissism:
erotic gratification derived from admiration of one's own physical or mental attributes, being a normal condition at the infantile level of personality development.

Now, there are many other men out there who share the same anatomical characteristics as me, but they are nothing like me. There are women who do NOT share the same characteristics, but I identify with them completely, because of their nature and actions, mindsets, etc. THAT would be more like narcissim to me.

True narcissism would require that one find sexual gratification without the assistance of ANY other partner, male or female.

And my comment about incest has to do with being drawn sexually to someone who reminds one of one's mother.....maybe not necessarily apropos to this conversation.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

True narcissism would require that one find sexual gratification without the assistance of ANY other partner, male or female.

True, that would be the *purest* form of narcissism. I see your point, but I still think CS's theory could have some bearing. It doesn't have to be all or nothing; it can be a component. I agree with JD that it doesn't work as a universal statement.

And my comment about incest has to do with being drawn sexually to someone who reminds one of one's mother.....maybe not necessarily apropos to this conversation.

I'm really afraid to even go down this rabbit trail.

[Jermyn Davidson]

I know of one homosexually-tempted youth who finds himself to be different from his other young male peers and it his desire to be like them and be liked by them that feeds his temptations. He says he can remember always feeling left out and different from the other guys, from elementary school.

He comes from a Christian family with a home that has both parents.

He has a terrible relationship with his father because he never bonded with him and the gulf between them is really, really wide.

When thinking of him, I often pray for his relationship with his father.

I know all to well how having a bad relationship with your father can be hurtful-- in ways that many will never understand.

Humans deal with different situations differently.

[houston]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

This makes no sense to me......what about men who are attracted to masculine women, and women who are attracted to effeminate men? Are they homosexual?

Homesxuality is no more narcissism than men who are attracted to women who look like them, and vice versa!

What about men who are attracted to women who are just like their mothers? Are they guilty of incest?

Come on......

Thanks

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

This makes no sense to me......what about men who are attracted to masculine women, and women who are attracted to effeminate men? Are they homosexual?

Homesxuality is no more narcissism than men who are attracted to women who look like them, and vice versa!

What about men who are attracted to women who are just like their mothers? Are they guilty of incest?

Come on......

Right, but where they born that way? Or was it a series of choices, early life influences and environment?

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Narcissism means love of self; Coonskinner was pulling that from the idea that a homosexual man is attracted to his own physical image rather than the opposite sex. (likewise with a lesbian)

The fact that sin leaves people hurt and confused is par for the sinful course; that doesn't mean the initial choices aren't any less selfish or self-serving. Sin is only pleasurable temporarily; then it becomes painful and destructive. In the beginning, it can be pleasurable--which is why human beings choose sin over and over and have since the beginning of time.

Of course sin leaves people hurting and confused. That's one of the reasons I so strongly object to any religious teaching that allows people to remain in sin and still be saved--because sin is universally destructive--even if you are told that God is okay with it and you feel some sort of acceptance in your religious circle. The sin itself will still eat away at your spirit, mind and body, and you will still find yourself hurt and confused in the end. Shame on any minister who seeks to allow people to remain in their sins and feel good about themselves spiritually. That man is seeking to allow people to remain in destruction instead of being an overcomer.

Amen.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Narcissism means love of self; Coonskinner was pulling that from the idea that a homosexual man is attracted to his own physical image rather than the opposite sex. (likewise with a lesbian)

The fact that sin leaves people hurt and confused is par for the sinful course; that doesn't mean the initial choices aren't any less selfish or self-serving. Sin is only pleasurable temporarily; then it becomes painful and destructive. In the beginning, it can be pleasurable--which is why human beings choose sin over and over and have since the beginning of time.

Of course sin leaves people hurting and confused. That's one of the reasons I so strongly object to any religious teaching that allows people to remain in sin and still be saved--because sin is universally destructive--even if you are told that God is okay with it and you feel some sort of acceptance in your religious circle. The sin itself will still eat away at your spirit, mind and body, and you will still find yourself hurt and confused in the end. Shame on any minister who seeks to allow people to remain in their sins and feel good about themselves spiritually. That man is seeking to allow people to remain in destruction instead of being an overcomer.

Leadership should always teach to leave sin, and to walk in righteousness.

What is being argued is that folks are born into sin or not, this world is sinful and broken, and yes, we all are born into it.

I have mentioned many times that our pastor has mentored seven gay men over the last 20 years. Five of them have married, ladies, of course, and have kids, some of them still struggled with same sex sin. However they have made the decision to trust God, and have confessed and continue to be overcomers. One of the remaining two has lived celibate for over sixteen years, still has the feelings but is an overcomer!!! Two of the married guys are on staff full time at the church, the church has walked with them, never condoning, yet full of mercy and love, in which the guys have flourished.

Unfortunate, the church at large knows too well how to condemn and very little about how to live in community with flawed and struggling humans. Of course, it requires honesty, and just as with the "crooked straights" one must desire to walk in righteousness.