Angels: Ministering Spirits

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I would prefer to speak the word of faith - forget the cloths. The ushering in of the NT church by Jesus Christ and Paul was a phenomenal event. Although, I was in a service where an evangelist walked by as he was preaching, and I felt the presence of God with him. I could then see how the people would have reached out to touch Jesus or Paul.

True. Cloths are by no means absolutely essential. However, perhaps there is someone who is in desperate need and they cannot be present with the anointed servant of God. The prayer cloth becomes a "spiritual bomb", a "spiritual weapon" if you will, through which God's power might be brought to them. Although... Jesus had authority to speak from a distance and something be done on behalf of the sick and dying. Perhaps some people don't have the faith. Perhaps some need a "touchstone" to focus upon to stir up faith.

But we can't deny it... for whatever reason the cloths were removed from Paul's person and taken to those in need of healing and deliverance. Even devils were cast out through their power. The very same Holy Spirit that indwelt Paul... indwells every believer. The only difference I can see is depth of faith, walk, prayer life, etc. But a biggie would be the "faith" to actually impliment such things into regular practice.

Christianity has "symbols"... that if their reality is reckoned through faith... these prove effectual. For example, the bread and the wine... the waters of baptism... anointed cloths... bibles... etc. In deliverance ministery some Spirit Filled believers have discovered that evil spirits are indeed greatly troubled by music, prayer, prayer cloths, blessed oil, blessed water, blessed incense, fasting, blessed bread & wine. Are these things necessary??? Absolutely not (exceptins being prayer & fasting in some circumstances). Since the advent of Christ, all that has been necessary is a stern adjuration (Grk. exorkismos/exorcism) through the authority of Christ's name. Most of these things are throw backs to the OT temple and ancient rituals conducted by the priests of Israel. Today... we have the anointing of God Himself residing in us.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Aquila

True. Cloths are by no means absolutely essential. However, perhaps there is someone who is in desperate need and they cannot be present with the anointed servant of God? The prayer cloth becomes a "spiritual bomb", a "spiritual weapon" if you will, through which God's power might be brought to them. Although... Jesus had authority to speak from a distance and something be done on behalf of the sick and dying. Perhaps some people don't have the faith. Perhaps some need a "touch stone" to focus upon to stir up faith.

But we can't deny it... for whatever reason the cloths were removed from Paul's person and taken to those in need of healing and deliverance. Even devils were cast out through their power. The very same Holy Spirit that indwelt Paul... indwells every believer. The only difference I can see is depth of faith, walk, prayer life, etc. But a biggie would be the "faith" to actually impliment such things into regular practice.

I wouldn't encourage someone that they need to touch something to have faith. If I believed that, I would have a statute of the Virgin Mary in my garden.

When the servant came to Jesus, his faith made his daughter whole. Jesus didn't even need to go to the man's house. I would preach on that point more.

I can see this powerful anointing exuding from Paul, making people want to touch him. And I can see them bringing that handkerchief home to touch the sick and infirm, because of their experience and faith.

However, taking the story out of context by applying oil, I have a problem with that. But, I think we agree on that point.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I wouldn't encourage someone that they need to touch something to have faith. If I believed that, I would have a statute of the Virgin Mary in my garden.

When the servant came to Jesus, his faith made his daughter whole. Jesus didn't even need to go to the man's house. I would preach on that point more.

I can see this powerful anointing exuding from Paul, making people want to touch him. And I can see them bringing that handkerchief home to touch the sick and infirm, because of their experience and faith.

However, taking the story out of context by applying oil, I have a problem with that. But, I think we agree on that point.

You're right. They didn't apply oil to the cloths.

Here's a question...

Why would they even think to take the aprons or handkerchiefs home to touch the sick, infirm, and demon possessed?

Again, here's the verse...

Acts 19:11-12
11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:
12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

While we might be uncomfortable with the possibility... it's possible that the ancients had a far deeper understanding of the power behind a thing that is "blessed". To the ancient mind, our rationalist approach to reason would be sterile and void of life. Jesus and the Apostles spoke to creation and sickness as though it were living... "Peace be still!", for example. Was the storm alive? Nope. But the power to command the elements as though it were... in fact... to speak to all of nature itself through the sheer authority of will was commonly understood. The notion that some kind of anointing or residual power might rest on an object was common place in their mindset. And they aren't rebuked for it.

The depths of spiritual understandings that we've yet to experience, or that we deny through religious rationalism, were quite common place to them.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Aquila

You're right. They didn't apply oil to the cloths.

Here's a question...

Why would they even think to take the aprons or handkerchiefs home to touch the sick, infirm, and demon possessed?

Again, here's the verse...

Acts 19:11-12
11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:
12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

While we might be uncomfortable with the possibility... it's possible that the ancients had a far deeper understanding of the power behind a thing that is "blessed" for God's purposes. To the ancient mind, our rationalist approach to reason would be sterile and void of life. Jesus and the Apostles spoke to creation and sickness as though it were living... "Peace be still!", for example. Is the storm alive? Nope. But the power to command the elements... nature itself through the sheer authority of will was commonly understood. The notion that some kind of anointing or residual power might rest on an object was common place in their mindset. And they aren't rebuked for it.

The depths of spiritual understandings that we've yet to experience, or we deny through rationalism, were common place to them.

That is certainly something to consider. I can see that. I don't think the area that Jesus and the Apostles ministered were large enough for the story of the woman with the issue of blood be lost. Think about the huge crowd around and he stops to ask, "Who touched me?" And then she comes forth to share her story.

Along with what you state, which I won't reject, perhaps they knew this story and realized they could also touch Paul. And like any other story, ONE person shares what happened, and it goes and grows from there.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

That is certainly something to consider. I can see that. I don't think the area that Jesus and the Apostles ministered were large enough for the story of the woman with the issue of blood be lost. Think about the huge crowd around and he stops to ask, "Who touched me?" And then she comes forth to share her story.

Along with what you state, which I won't reject, perhaps they knew this story and realized they could also touch Paul. And like any other story, ONE person shares what happened, and it goes and grows from there.

True. In addition... we do have extra biblical literature that depicts quite a different mindset with relation to spiritual things than what we have today.