RDP

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Whole Hearted

Titus2woman

You are fillied with bitterness and hatred and it is consuming you.

(Note, the "you" in this post is a generalization in most uses)

Oh the "bitter" pill, how unpredictable. Listen T2W may be bitter I don't know, but I think it is sickening and manifests hearts of hirelings who do not really love people, the way that some OP preachers live lives of hypocrisy as she detailed in her post above, and everyone else is expected to just "line up". And when the hypocricy is exposed the saints are told "he's just a man", but when the same man is pontificating about standards and damning everyone who doesn't see it his way to hell, then he's anointed and the mouthpiece of God. The people are to submit to his authority on their lives. Some (not all) will not even lay a finger on the heavy burdens they lay on others, but that is generally the way man made religion works.

You guys talk about standards and tongues and baptosm, but not grace, love, mercy. You are the classic example of neglecting the weightier matters of the law as the pharisees did. You are filled with love, but only love for those who see it like you do. What do you guys do differently from the world? Your love towards others is conditional based on their religious profession, outward appearence, or at best prospects of becoming a proselyte to your church. Once you know one got away, love turns to hatred, and its attack mode, not healing or reconciliation. There are OP preachers who are nothing but hirelings. They don't really care for the sheep, they care for themselves. When the sheep stray (in their eyes) the don't find them and throw them over their shoulders, they beat them, and wound them. I know you guys know about religion, but I wonder if you know Jesus. You claim to be the only ones who are saved and have His Spirit living inside, yet manifest the exact opposite attititude of the one who loved all of us while we were yet sinners, who wills for none to perish, but all to come to repentance, who weeps for the lost, who looks for a reason to save people, not searches for a reason or technicality to ........ them. There is a lot of talk about Christlikeness, but talk is cheap, where is the walk, that's why the world is put out with churches.

But you guys can't understand this. You don't understand that not everyone who leaves is bitter. Some see through the hypocrisy, some simply don't believe the doctrine or the standards. Just because someone leave doesn't make them bitter.

Personally I left because I am convinced of justification by faith as being the point of salvation. That doesn't mean I don't think the repentant sinner doesn't need to be baptized. If the repntant sinner who is justified by his faith doesn't want to be baptized, that is a good indication he may not have sincerely repented and thus may not be justified. Ultimately only God knows the sincerity and genuinenss of the heart, and so the knowledge of salvation rests with Him. I left because of that, the unbiblical initial evidence doctrine, the standards being preached as legalism, the mindset that the devil is around every corner trying to take you down, the abusive doctrine of tithing, and seeing the way that others who left were treated. To name a few reasons.

Despite those things, most people (not all) were decent to me in real life, except for a few preachers). Most of the hatred and real ugliness came from preachers on the internet, especially APF (apostolic preachers forum). But I'm not bitter about a bunch of guys who don't know me, pffft the internet is what it is. It showed their true colors and the way they talk in closed forums when the saints aren't around, but despite that I know there are plenty of good OP preachers who don't have that hatred. And despite all that if something doesn't work out where I am now I haven't completely closed the door on the OP church. But one thing is for sure, if I ever go back it wil be to a moderate church, with a pastor who loves people.

I'll never go back into the kind of environment T2W described. And to her point I can see why she can make the connection between some posters in this thread and those old memories and mentality. Personally I'm not bitter, just glad I didn't continue on like that. Because I was just as dogmatic, judmental, and mean as anyone on this thread has been. I knew I was saved, and I knew who wasn't, and would proclaim it. One example was once I was asked about Joyce Meyer, I said "that's easy she's going to hell" (or something to that effect, maybe not quite as blunt). The shocked person asked "why?" I said because she has short hair and wears earrings". Yes that was enough to burn in hell forever. Yes I was holier than thou. Like Paul said, a pharisee of 5he pharisees. I was probably more zealous for the standards and kept them more to the letter than these posters. I lined up on everything. I was the posterboy for pentecost, until my eyes were open to who Christ really was. Oh sure I knew Christ, he had saved me. I knew He was the manifestation of the one God. But I failed to understand how he loved, how he lived, and what being like Christ really meant. I still desire to know Him more, but despite the insults, despite being called bitter, and heritic, and so much worse, I keep walking with my Lord. He is not the accuser of the bretheren, He bid me to follow Him, and no man will get in my way.

[Whole Hearted]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

(Note, the "you" in this post is a generalization in most uses)

Oh the "bitter" pill, how unpredictable. Listen T2W may be bitter I don't know, but I think it is sickening and manifests hearts of hirelings who do not really love people, the way that some OP preachers live lives of hypocrisy as she detailed in her post above, and everyone else is expected to just "line up". And when the hypocricy is exposed the saints are told "he's just a man", but when the same man is pontificating about standards and damning everyone who doesn't see it his way to hell, then he's anointed and the mouthpiece of God. The people are to submit to his authority on their lives. Some (not all) will not even lay a finger on the heavy burdens they lay on others, but that is generally the way man made religion works.

You guys talk about standards and tongues and baptosm, but not grace, love, mercy. You are the classic example of neglecting the weightier matters of the law as the pharisees did. You are filled with love, but only love for those who see it like you do. What do you guys do differently from the world? Your love towards others is conditional based on their religious profession, outward appearence, or at best prospects of becoming a proselyte to your church. Once you know one got away, love turns to hatred, and its attack mode, not healing or reconciliation. There are OP preachers who are nothing but hirelings. They don't really care for the sheep, they care for themselves. When the sheep stray (in their eyes) the don't find them and throw them over their shoulders, they beat them, and wound them. I know you guys know about religion, but I wonder if you know Jesus. You claim to be the only ones who are saved and have His Spirit living inside, yet manifest the exact opposite attititude of the one who loved all of us while we were yet sinners, who wills for none to perish, but all to come to repentance, who weeps for the lost, who looks for a reason to save people, not searches for a reason or technicality to ........ them. There is a lot of talk about Christlikeness, but talk is cheap, where is the walk, that's why the world is put out with churches.

But you guys can't understand this. You don't understand that not everyone who leaves is bitter. Some see through the hypocrisy, some simply don't believe the doctrine or the standards. Just because someone leave doesn't make them bitter.

Personally I left because I am convinced of justification by faith as being the point of salvation. That doesn't mean I don't think the repentant sinner doesn't need to be baptized. If the repntant sinner who is justified by his faith doesn't want to be baptized, that is a good indication he may not have sincerely repented and thus may not be justified. Ultimately only God knows the sincerity and genuinenss of the heart, and so the knowledge of salvation rests with Him. I left because of that, the unbiblical initial evidence doctrine, the standards being preached as legalism, the mindset that the devil is around every corner trying to take you down, the abusive doctrine of tithing, and seeing the way that others who left were treated. To name a few reasons.

Despite those things, most people (not all) were decent to me in real life, except for a few preachers). Most of the hatred and real ugliness came from preachers on the internet, especially APF (apostolic preachers forum). But I'm not bitter about a bunch of guys who don't know me, pffft the internet is what it is. It showed their true colors and the way they talk in closed forums when the saints aren't around, but despite that I know there are plenty of good OP preachers who don't have that hatred. And despite all that if something doesn't work out where I am now I haven't completely closed the door on the OP church. But one thing is for sure, if I ever go back it wil be to a moderate church, with a pastor who loves people.

I'll never go back into the kind of environment T2W described. And to her point I can see why she can make the connection between some posters in this thread and those old memories and mentality. Personally I'm not bitter, just glad I didn't continue on like that. Because I was just as dogmatic, judmental, and mean as anyone on this thread has been. I knew I was saved, and I knew who wasn't, and would proclaim it. One example was once I was asked about Joyce Meyer, I said "that's easy she's going to hell" (or something to that effect, maybe not quite as blunt). The shocked person asked "why?" I said because she has short hair and wears earrings". Yes that was enough to burn in hell forever. Yes I was holier than thou. Like Paul said, a pharisee of 5he pharisees. I was probably more zealous for the standards and kept them more to the letter than these posters. I lined up on everything. I was the posterboy for pentecost, until my eyes were open to who Christ really was. Oh sure I knew Christ, he had saved me. I knew He was the manifestation of the one God. But I failed to understand how he loved, how he lived, and what being like Christ really meant. I still desire to know Him more, but despite the insults, despite being called bitter, and heritic, and so much worse, I keep walking with my Lord. He is not the accuser of the bretheren, He bid me to follow Him, and no man will get in my way.

I preach far more on grace, mercy and love than I ever do standards. THANK YOU.

I continualy reach for the lost, to the point I gave up agood job to go start a church where there was no church and our family live in near opverty because of this, but we love souls.

You know nothing about me so get off you high horse.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Whole Hearted

I preach far more on grace, mercy and love than I ever do standards. THANK YOU.

I continualy reach for the lost, to the point I gave up agood job to go start a church where there was no church and our family live in near opverty because of this, but we love souls.

You know nothing about me so get off you high horse.

Admittedly I know nothing about you, exept the miniscule interaction we've had on AFF. Perhaps you missed the first line in my post:

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

(Note, the "you" in this post is a generalization in most uses)

All I can do is peak from my experiences. It is also my experience that the typical reaction by OP preachers to over react and claim they preach on grace way more than standards. Perhaps you're an exception, I don't know.

I know in years and hundreds, if not thousands, of service, camp meetings, conferences, etc. I rarely heard grace even mentioned, and cannot recall even one single time I heard a message about grace, mercy, or justification. I rarely heard the love of God expounded on (though we did sing the hymn "The Love of God" which was probably the most "teaching" I ever heard on the topic from that standpoint, i.e. divorced from my performance or lining up with standards) and I did hear a fair amount about love for people. BUT the love for people was always in the context of evangelism, and saving the lost. An admirable reason indeed, but shallow when it stands on its own. Love was never preached in the context of loving our fellow human being because they are made in the image of God, because they all have intrinsic value and self worth. People are worth loving just for the simple fact that Christ loved them, and died for all of them. There wasnt a child molestor, a homosexual, a murderer, a thief, a heretic, a dictator, a tyrant, that Jesus didn't shed his blood for so that they could have the oppertunity to repent. I'm not saying it is always easy to love those people, but thats what true love is in the Christian context, it goes beyond evangelism and sacrifice, it is a love as much like God's love as is humanly possible.

If you live in near poverty levels to preach the gospel, more power to you. No doubt there has been alot of sacrifice by OPs to spread the word. But so it is with Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, etc. Alot of OPs are all about evangelism, thats not in question. What is in question is the love of those same people for those who are not propsective converts.

My experience is that as long as your part of the club your accepted. It doesn't even matter if privately you don't agree, as long as publically you toe the line. But once you publically disagree, then all those who professed their love and loyalty, turn on you, and seek to destroy you. Over sleeve lengths, dress codes, and a hundred things more not specifically addressed in the Bible. Thats why I said in the other post, theirs is a love lke the world. Its like the Democrats or Rebuplicans. They love their own, but what happens when one switches to the other party, all the love shrivels up and is replaced with venom. Thats the kind of love I associated with pentecostalism. Its a love as good as gold if you line up, but if you don't........

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Whole Hearted

I preach far more on grace, mercy and love than I ever do standards. THANK YOU.

I continualy reach for the lost, to the point I gave up agood job to go start a church where there was no church and our family live in near opverty because of this, but we love souls.

You know nothing about me so get off you high horse.

How about here? What comes from you most?