Newborns & Children go to hell?! What does the Bib

NewbieMisfits · #1 06-13-2013, 06:42 AM

What if this is a test?

What if this is a test to see if we will blindly follow what they say, or if we will search out what we know isn't right and scripturally stand up against them?

This is the only logic I can see, for the bodies that make up this Church have more love than we've ever witnessed (and we've witnessed a lot).

Dichotomy Girl · #2 06-13-2013, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NewbieMisfits

What if this is a test?

What if this is a test to see if we will blindly follow what they say, or if we will search out what we know isn't right and scripturally stand up against them?

This is the only logic I can see, for the bodies that make up this Church have more love than we've ever witnessed (and we've witnessed a lot).

I can't quite believe I'm saying this, because I feel like it's putting me in a strange position of defending Apostolics....

But there is a place for individual interpretation, personal conviction, and having your own opinions. If anyone has learned that you will NEVER find a church whose teachings agree 100% with your personal beliefs. I mean, if this topic is a large part of their doctrine. Going around preaching about all the hell-bound babies of unbelievers, then I could see where it's a problem. If the preacher screams it from the pulpit a good % of the time he's there, then I could see that it might be a problem. But if you otherwise agree with the 3 steps, love the pastor and the church. I think it's ok to have a difference of opinion in this matter.

I had posted previously, that I had only run across one person who believed this in my entire time as an Apostolic. (or at least who mentioned it to me). She happened to be the one teaching me a Bible study. I talked to a few other apostolics, found that it was by no means an official "doctrine" of the UPC, and just kind of put it aside.

navygoat1998 · #3 06-13-2013, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dichotomy Girl

I can't quite believe I'm saying this, because I feel like it's putting me in a strange position of defending Apostolics....

But there is a place for individual interpretation, personal conviction, and having your own opinions. If anyone has learned that you will NEVER find a church whose teachings agree 100% with your personal beliefs. I mean, if this topic is a large part of their doctrine. Going around preaching about all the hell-bound babies of unbelievers, then I could see where it's a problem. If the preacher screams it from the pulpit a good % of the time he's there, then I could see that it might be a problem. But if you otherwise agree with the 3 steps, love the pastor and the church. I think it's ok to have a difference of opinion in this matter.

I had posted previously, that I had only run across one person who believed this in my entire time as an Apostolic. (or at least who mentioned it to me). She happened to be the one teaching me a Bible study. I talked to a few other apostolics, found that it was by no means an official "doctrine" of the UPC, and just kind of put it aside.

I had a friend one time that told me that the other Pentecostals would be the concubine of Christ because the true bride was the Oneness Pentecostals.

NewbieMisfits · #4 06-13-2013, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dichotomy Girl

I can't quite believe I'm saying this, because I feel like it's putting me in a strange position of defending Apostolics....

But there is a place for individual interpretation, personal conviction, and having your own opinions. If anyone has learned that you will NEVER find a church whose teachings agree 100% with your personal beliefs. I mean, if this topic is a large part of their doctrine. Going around preaching about all the hell-bound babies of unbelievers, then I could see where it's a problem. If the preacher screams it from the pulpit a good % of the time he's there, then I could see that it might be a problem. But if you otherwise agree with the 3 steps, love the pastor and the church. I think it's ok to have a difference of opinion in this matter.

I had posted previously, that I had only run across one person who believed this in my entire time as an Apostolic. (or at least who mentioned it to me). She happened to be the one teaching me a Bible study. I talked to a few other apostolics, found that it was by no means an official "doctrine" of the UPC, and just kind of put it aside.

Huh, wonder if it's the same Church lol.

I agree with what you typed up, with that I gathered that I will ask today if there is an active (Agree to Disagree) policy at this Church.
We do LUV this Church, and we have no issues when others believe differently. So we have no problem "agreeing to disagree", and my only question is if they do as well.
If so, cool...
If not..... then I have a lot of work ahead of me....

Edit/Add: Don't feel you are defending Apo's, simply helping us better understand them

Dichotomy Girl · #5 06-13-2013, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NewbieMisfits

Huh, wonder if it's the same Church lol.

I agree with what you typed up, with that I gathered that I will ask today if there is an active (Agree to Disagree) policy at this Church.
We do LUV this Church, and we have no issues when others believe differently. So we have no problem "agreeing to disagree", and my only question is if they do as well.
If so, cool...
If not..... then I have a lot of work ahead of me....

Each church is of course different, but usually as long as you are agreeing with the major teachings...the 3 steps of salvation, the oneness of God and Standards, then I don't see you having any problems.

And actually I existed quite happily for years not agreeing with some of the above, it wasn't until I got to the place where I disagreed with more than I agreed with that I left. (of course, I also had all sorts of baggage from being in an unhealthy church under a bad Pastor)

NewbieMisfits · #6 06-13-2013, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dichotomy Girl

Each church is of course different, but usually as long as you are agreeing with the major teachings...the 3 steps of salvation, the oneness of God and Standards, then I don't see you having any problems.

And actually I existed quite happily for years not agreeing with some of the above, it wasn't until I got to the place where I disagreed with more than I agreed with that I left. (of course, I also had all sorts of baggage from being in an unhealthy church under a bad Pastor)

We are (sadly) way to scripturally ignorant to truly agree or disagree with... ... well just about everything at this point.

We were not raised to personally read the Bible for our own understanding. We were raised to personally read the bible while applying the pastor's understanding (but with no real importance of salvation so long as you showed up on Sunday morning to look good). Not saying all Baptist are wrong of course...

That's why the Menno's worked so well for so long, you did not need your own understanding, for theirs were set in stone.... Legalism is a very nice concept to understand/follow until it is simply non-functional in "real-life." Not saying all Menno's are like this, in fact all other Menno Churches we visited after were not like this.

SO we both fully understand baggage

We are in-fact so different from Apo's in worship that I fear it borderlines disrespecting/"lowering the mood" of the congregation.
There is so much honest love/joy/faith/respect/openness there in worship that we are scared we might hinder those emotions by being the stiff-legged/scared misfits that we are....

Anyhow... back to the thread..

Dichotomy Girl · #7 06-13-2013, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NewbieMisfits

We are (sadly) way to scripturally ignorant to truly agree or disagree with... ... well just about everything at this point.

We were not raised to personally read the Bible for our own understanding. We were raised to personally read the bible while applying the pastor's understanding (but with no real importance of salvation so long as you showed up on Sunday morning to look good). Not saying all Baptist are wrong of course...

That's why the Menno's worked so well for so long, you did not need your own understanding, for theirs were set in stone.... Legalism is a very nice concept to understand/follow until it is simply non-functional in "real-life." Not saying all Menno's are like this, in fact all other Menno Churches we visited after were not like this.

SO we both fully understand baggage

We are in-fact so different from Apo's in worship that I fear it borderlines disrespecting/"lowering the mood" of the congregation.
There is so much honest love/joy/faith/respect/openness there in worship that we are scared we might hinder those emotions by being the stiff-legged/scared misfits that we are....

Anyhow... back to the thread..

It took me forever to raise one hand during worship time, let alone anything else, and I was never hugely expressive. (Later on I might cry or speak in tongues, but I wasn't one to run the aisles or dance) But I think I felt that it was nice that if I ever felt the need to let it all out, I was at a place where no one would judge me, LOL

As for knowing scripture. I don't want to discourage that, but there is something in your words that reminded me of the person I used to be. I wanted to know EVERYTHING. For years I studied like crazy and read everything I could get my hands on. I really wish that I had worried more about knowing Jesus than knowing doctrine. I think it would have saved me a lot of pain and hardship.

I think of Paul when he says to the Corinthians, I resolved to know nothing when I was among you, but Christ and Him crucified. (I haven't read the Bible regularly in 5 years and verses still pop into my head all the time!)

soopy · #8 06-13-2013, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dichotomy Girl

I can't quite believe I'm saying this, because I feel like it's putting me in a strange position of defending Apostolics....

But there is a place for individual interpretation, personal conviction, and having your own opinions. If anyone has learned that you will NEVER find a church whose teachings agree 100% with your personal beliefs... I think it's ok to have a difference of opinion in this matter...

Ha are you married? I am the Church, and I agree 100% with your personal beliefs, even if I may not believe them. Wanna dance?

Dichotomy Girl · #9 06-13-2013, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soopy

Ha are you married? I am the Church, and I agree 100% with your personal beliefs, even if I may not believe them. Wanna dance?

Yes, I'm married, to an Atheist no less, it was quite the scandal.

What do you mean that you ARE the church?

soopy · #10 06-14-2013, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dichotomy Girl

Yes, I'm married, to an Atheist no less, it was quite the scandal.

What do you mean that you ARE the church?

Well, gasp. I wudn't worry; I know some passive atheists, and they are quite spiritual (although I've learned not to tell them this), and may even mirror Christ better than me, hmm.

Yes, I am the Church, just like you, a living stone, contained in no building-that, to me, would be a congregation? and that not necessarily of Christ; but it's easy enough to tell, imo, you just look at there fruit. Going to 'church' (on Sunday, no doubt) for an hour does not a Christian make, to me anyway.