Newborns & Children go to hell?! What does the Bib

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by MarcBee

I have scant knowledge about Jonathan Edwards, but I do know in Medieval or Renaissance paintings, for example, strange looking demons are given the task of dangling sinners over hellfire and other tortures. Presumably the intention of the artists was to imply that the Yahweh god created these nasty minions to do the unpleasant spider dangling. Is that the sort of thing you are claiming I agree with, along with Jonathan Edwards?



Intuitively, I have no idea why, yet the belief is corroborated throughout the New Testament. One or two examples should suffice, as I am almost tiring of reviewing this very common orthodoxy.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
[BTW, Mosaic law not necessarily in view there, as evidenced in previous two verses: 2:8 "If ye fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well" 9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin , and are convicted of the law as transgressors."

Or, pick any ole' violation--James would agree you are "convicted as transgressor."

Romans 5:12 Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men for that all have sinned .

Peter, Paul, et al often back up the same concept--any sin we have committed proves the fallen nature we have received at birth due to Adam's fall, and in turn validates god's punishment for sin. And faith--the correct faith--is the only escape route, of course.




Likewise, if god doesn't plan on redeeming the devil, why tolerate all that and his supposed demons for thousands of years? Would it take Yahweh that long just to make a point? Circular what-ifs could go on forever. Rather, I am mirroring fairly common orthodoxy concerning sin and its consequences. You are free to spin the bible into describing a very, very nice God, or one answerable to a human sense of justice. Suits me!

You're are only quoting one half of the facts, yes, all men were condemned to the curse of sin, and became sinners as the result of Adam's failure.

Just as the MANY were made sinners, the same MANY are made righteous, thru the blood of Christ. As you accuse, so you do, shape the meaning of scripture to your belief. I am not just making God nice, I believe in the sufficiency and the POWER of the blood. That power is greater that the power of Adam's sin, the cure is greater that the disease. All of mankind came under the curse, without any choice in the manner, why is it that the blood of Christ (the cure) not recognize in the same manner.

Man's response to the free gift is important, but a totally different subject. Man's release from the curse is finished and complete, as Jesus declared.

BTW: God is not making a point, He has a plan, and He is working His plan, satan nor Adam have changed His plan.

Roman 5:19-21

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

(the law came to make man more sinful, so that God's grace would be more obvious)

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jonathan Edwards was an early American minister, while admirable in so many ways, was a fire and brimstoner of the strongest style, of which I think you would agree and approve. Google and read all about Jonathan.

[MarcBee]

Originally Posted by crakjak

You're are only quoting one half of the facts,

Actually not even half of the possible, relevant "facts." But in a forum we must summarize a pretty big book with just a few selected verses, hopefully ones that best capture the larger point.

Just as the MANY were made sinners, the same MANY are made righteous, thru the blood of Christ.

A valid piece of evidence, there. As with many doctrinal issues where we have some deciding to do concerning what the Bible is trying to say, it's best (or let's say common, useful, honest, if not also spiritual) to allow the clearest, most frequent meanings carry weight above the apparently less clear, less frequent, less corrorborated meanings. If per above, merely MANY (but not all) men were made sinners, then Houston, we've got a problem, in light of other more frequent, plain teaching that describes the curse of sin as universal. Of course, such "bible problems," are what provide careers for bible scholars and/or new Christian sects. (Of course, all that Apostolics need is the Holy Ghost to lead into all truth, natch.)

As you accuse, so you do, shape the meaning of scripture to your belief... Jonathan Edwards was an early American minister, while admirable in so many ways, was a fire and brimstoner of the strongest style, of which I think you would agree and approve.

Please do not confuse what I am claiming the bible writers are teaching with what I personally think is true. For my views about "what is true", I try to, out of courtesy, keep that over on "Timmy Talk."

...fire and brimstoner...>>

(joke) I guess a "brimstoner" is what one may as well try to become when judgment is falling from the sky.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by crakjak

You're are only quoting one half of the facts, yes, all men were condemned to the curse of sin, and became sinners as the result of Adam's failure.

Just as the MANY were made sinners, the same MANY are made righteous, thru the blood of Christ.

This is what happens when people lack the hermeneutical skills to interpret the word. What you are doing is taking that verse out of context (besides not even referencing it correctly).

The "many" first of all should be a clue. The bible says ALL have sinned and fallen short (Rom 3:23). So the "Many" is but a fraction of the WHOLE.

In context "The many" refers back to a select group of humans that Paul is speaking of, those that actually ARE saved.

Christ died for ALL but the MANY are the ones that actually accept His free Gift