When You Die...

[Dordrecht]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Well that's why Christians are hated by the world religons. Christ said(therefore we believe) that he is the ONLY way to God.

Its not because WE say he is the only way.

We say it because that's what HE said. You cannot be a Christian and think there are OTHER ways to God.

If that true Christianity is itself false. To us the whole world is in darkness and we are the children of light.

[Antipas]

When we die we die. Our atoms return to nature... return to the universe. There's no conscious reality that we can conceive of. What is this like? Imagine what existence was like before you were born. However, your atoms and being are broken down and may become part of a waterfall, an eagle, a flower, a stream, a majestic beach. You live on.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Antipas

Imagine how many of this world's problems would be resolved if we realized that God is the supreme reality speaking to us all in various ways.

I've been "Christian" for over 20 years. And it's only until recently that I've received this understanding. As of right now I'm studying the teachings of Buddha and finding many of the very same truths presented that Christ taught. It's almost as though one can feel God speaking, through the oriental mind of Siddhārtha Gautama of course.

The Message of Jesus is that HE, J E S U S, is the only way to God, that He - JESUS - is the One sent by God to redeem a people for His name, that all who believe in him - JESUS - have everlasting life, and anyone who doesn't believe in Him - JESUS - is condemned to the wrath of God, revealed against all sin and unrighteousness.

The message of the Buddha is that HE - Buddha - is simply one who found the way to escape the cycle of reincarnation, birth, death, rebirth, and suffering in this life by eliminating desire and attachment to people, things, thoughts, ideas, goals, etc, through a specific discipline of meditation and works which contribute to cultivating a state of mind free from the illusion of so-called 'reality'. 'God' was irrelevant and largely a distraction in his scheme of things.

On a related note, unless you were born and raised speaking an Eastern language pattern with inflections where the noun is not the 'root' of your grammar, you will probably never fully comprehend eastern philosophy or religion.

One's language determines the boundaries of one's thoughts, and one's thoughts determine the boundaries of one's beliefs and practices and understanding. Eastern thought (Oriental, not ANE) is derived from a language base very different from the Western (Greek, Hebrew, Latin, English, or Germanic) language base and therefore the thought processes are very different.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The Message of Jesus is that HE, J E S U S, is the only way to God, that He - JESUS - is the One sent by God to redeem a people for His name, that all who believe in him - JESUS - have everlasting life, and anyone who doesn't believe in Him - JESUS - is condemned to the wrath of God, revealed against all sin and unrighteousness.

The message of the Buddha is that HE - Buddha - is simply one who found the way to escape the cycle of reincarnation, birth, death, rebirth, and suffering in this life by eliminating desire and attachment to people, things, thoughts, ideas, goals, etc, through a specific discipline of meditation and works which contribute to cultivating a state of mind free from the illusion of so-called 'reality'. 'God' was irrelevant and largely a distraction in his scheme of things.

On a related note, unless you were born and raised speaking an Eastern language pattern with inflections where the noun is not the 'root' of your grammar, you will probably never fully comprehend eastern philosophy or religion.

One's language determines the boundaries of one's thoughts, and one's thoughts determine the boundaries of one's beliefs and practices and understanding. Eastern thought (Oriental, not ANE) is derived from a language base very different from the Western (Greek, Hebrew, Latin, English, or Germanic) language base and therefore the thought processes are very different.

So... your idea of God would have God deep fry a 14 year old Buddhist girl who never had an opportunity to hear about Jesus? If so, do you honestly believe that this is holy and just?

[Antipas]

I too believe in one God. However, I entertain the notion that God is all that is. No invisible sky city, invisible sky people, no eternal furnace, no harps, halos, ghosts or goblins. God is. And we see Him in every sunrise, every sunset, every super nova, and in every atom that is. Therefore God was in Christ, Buddha, Muhammad, Krishna, and is even in you and me. When we open our eyes in the morning we behold... God.

I was a die hard Apostolic for well over 20 years. I know the fundamentalist mantra all too well. I find my peace on the hill side, watching the sun as it sets, gracing me with another evening. My God is in movement, living, active, creating, destroying before our very eyes in every second. We were formed by Him, from Him, and for Him. And yes, we all shall return to Him. Ashes to ashes. Dust to dust. He is all. And all is Him. And we are part of Him. Our conscious reality is merely the universe experiencing itself. Men (all religious figures) have interpreted Him in accordance to their language and culture. The veil of flesh has distorted the sacred reality and filled the irrefutable truth with myth. And though our conscious reality will cease upon death; our every atom will forever be a part of Him. Reborn in countless ways as they scatter and become a part of countless systems, ecologies, and living things. Billions of ages will pass and even our Sun shall go nova, the elements being dissolved with fervent heat. Yet He will live on, and we in Him. Eternal. Limitless. The All in All.

[Nitehawk013]

Cumbaya around the campfire smoking a dooby right? You sound like a wasted hippy.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

Cumbaya around the campfire smoking a dooby right? You sound like a wasted hippy.

No doobies. Actually, it's more akin to the theological ideas of Baruch Spinoza with a bent towards naturalist pantheism.

[DaveC519]

Originally Posted by Aquila

What happens when we die? What do we expect with regards to Heaven's reality?

Hello Aquila,

I'd like to respond to your two general questions above, and perhaps address your other specific thoughts later.

First, we know that Jesus, at his ascension, was taken up into heaven (Acts 1:11; 3:21, etc.). Here he abides until his Second Coming back to the earth and the "times of restitution of all things".

Second, Paul said that he was willing to be "absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord" (2Cor 5:8). This statement bears some important implications:

a)- Who "he" (Paul) was was more than his physical body. This immediately rejects the modern philosophy of Physicalism (everything that exists is physical), and it's corollary that "all mental states are necessitated by physical states" (Wikipedia: Physicalism). IOW, we continue to exist in some way beyond the death of our physical bodies.

b)- Paul's essence, who he really is (his soul), would be "present" with the Lord upon being "absent" from his body. And since we know from the above verses that the Lord is in heaven, this means that to be "present with the Lord" is to be in heaven with the Lord. Rev 6:9 bears record that there are souls in heaven, for it says the souls of those martyred for God's word were under the altar in heaven.

c)- In 1Thess 4, Paul said that the dead in Christ, those who he called "asleep in Jesus" (vs. 13-16) would rise first, but he also said that Jesus would bring these back with him (vs. 14).

Now, how can those who sleep in Jesus- the dead in Christ- be resurrected but also be those whom the Lord brings back with him? This can take place if we think in terms that what Jesus will bring back with him is the souls of the deceased. These he will use as the blueprint, so to speak, to resurrect their physical bodies, and then re-unite their souls to their inanimate bodies, thus bringing them "alive" again: the Resurrection!

d)- How can it be said that those who are the "dead in Christ" are "asleep in Jesus" and yet be present with the Lord at the same time? Humans are tripartite beings (body, soul, spirit- 1Thess 5:23). Our essence- our soul (the seat of intellect & seat of emotions)- is informed by our physical body, by and through which we interact with the physical world. When we die, our soul departs the tabernacle of our physical body (2Cor 5), and therefore is no longer informed of the physical realm through physical sense perception. Theoretically, our soul might receive knowledge intuitively via God's Spirit, but not through the physical senses. Therefore, it is in this way that it can be said we are "asleep" and yet at the very same time be present with the Lord, and even possess consciousness and communicate in some way (Rev. 6:9-10).

After all, what is "sleep"? Isn't it a temporary disconnect of our consciousness from the realm of physical sense perception? We still possess some level of consciousness in sleep, but it is not the same as when we are fully awake, and therefore, fully informed of the physical realm via our senses. And so it is with those who are asleep in Christ. They continue to possess consciousness, but not the consciousness which is fully informed via the physical senses.

Still with me? Your thoughts?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Antipas

So... your idea of God would have God deep fry a 14 year old Buddhist girl who never had an opportunity to hear about Jesus? If so, do you honestly believe that this is holy and just?

Do people have a 'right' to hear about Jesus?

By what standard do you judge whether something is 'holy and just'? By what YOU would do if YOU were God?

Even buddha would laugh at such nonsense.

Oh by the way, buddha teachings - a 14 year old Christian girl who never had an opportunity to hear the 8 fold path would suffer INNUMERABLE LIFETIMES OF MISERY AND SADNESS and possibly spend countless years in 'hell' in torment and pain because she did not have an opportunity to know how to escape the endless cycle of death and rebirth (rebirth being possible not only in this 'world' but in other worlds as well, what we call 'heavens' or 'hells').

Furthermore, buddha would say all her suffering is her own fault anyway because she chose to be born into the world as a Christian and live under religious deception and fantasy and illusion in this sangsara in order to atone for her ignorance in previous lives.

Is that 'holy and just'?

buddha calls you to drop all concepts of 'holy and just' realise that moral determinations are part of the illusion holding you back from IT that you seek... which is itself an illusion... endlessly...until you AWAKEN and realise you are already as enlightened as you ever will be or could be...

... and so it goes...

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by DaveC519

IOW, we continue to exist in some way beyond the death of our physical bodies.

Where is the bible verse or verses actually teaching that?

This can take place if we think in terms that what Jesus will bring back with him is the souls of the deceased.

Does the bible actually SAY that?

These he will use as the blueprint, so to speak, to resurrect their physical bodies, and then re-unite their souls to their inanimate bodies, thus bringing them "alive" again: the Resurrection!

Does the bible teach that 'souls will be reunited with inanimate bodies to make people alive again'? Does the bible teach that a person is alive because the SOUL is UNITED WITH THE BODY? Where does it actually say this?

When we die, our soul departs the tabernacle of our physical body (2Cor 5)

The word 'soul' does not appear in that chapter.

They continue to possess consciousness, but not the consciousness which is fully informed via the physical senses.

Still with me? Your thoughts?

Where did any apostle or prophet or the Lord Himself actually teach the dead 'continue to possess consciousness'?

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Eccles 9:5

His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. Psalm 146:4

The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. Psalm 115:17