The Gift of Tongues and Initial Evidence

[renee819]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

When taking in the whole counsel, I don't see any conclusive or emphatic evidence that Paul is instructing people to only speak in tongues at home and only in private - outside of tongues and interpretation.

I also don't see the Disciples embracing the terminology - "prayer language".

The instructions do give the idea that the person is speaking to God and not the church body, edifying themselves alone in a quiet and personal manner:

"For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." 1 Corinthians 14:2

"He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church." I Corinthians 14:4

Again, nothing here indicates the person is not with the church body.

I also find that Paul is showing that the speakers involved in tongues and interpretation (I Cor. 14:28) were very well able to control themselves, indicating that they could or should be able to identify between edification of the church body and personal edification.

Anyone who has been around Pentecost, for any length of time, knows the difference as well.

Yes, they diffently were able to control themselves, as we should also.

Pressing On, No there is no terminology such as "prayer language." but putting the scriptures together we see that Paul is talking about prayer, as well as edifying the church.

"

For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God"

When you are speaking to God, you are praying. Then down a little farther,

1 Cor14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue

.

If Paul 'spoke in tongues more than them all, yet didn't speak much in the churches, where did he speak in tongues?

I would say, in private, and it would be a prayer language.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by renee819

Yes, they diffently were able to control themselves, as we should also.

Pressing On, No there is no terminology such as "prayer language." but putting the scriptures together we see that Paul is talking about prayer, as well as edifying the church.

I would rather prefer to use "speaking in tongues" as the Disciples never used any other term.

When you are speaking to God, you are praying. Then down a little farther,


If Paul 'spoke in tongues more than them all, yet didn't speak much in the churches, where did he speak in tongues?

I would say, in private, and it would be a prayer language.

I would have to consider Paul's whole counsel and instruction in I Cor 14.

In I Corinthians 14:5, Paul says, "I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied:"

Notice that in the Greek, "rather" is defined to mean, "more, in a greater degree".

Paul is saying, "I would that you spoke with tongues, but in a larger degree, that you would prophesy."

We, therefore, cannot come to the emphatic conclusion that speaking in tongues is nixed in a church body, other than tongues and interpretation. "More" or "in a greater degree" implies that you are or should be doing more than something else.

I Corinthians 14:19, "had rather" is defined differently. It means, "to will, wish" - "Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding,...",

In essence, Paul is saying, "I wish to speak with five words of my understanding."

Paul wouldn't give instructions that would contradict each other.

He ends the instruction with - 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. (40) Let all things be done decently and in order.

Earnestly desire to prophesy more, don't forbid anyone to speak in tongues. Let everything be done decently and in order.

[renee819]

Originally Posted by renee819

Yes, they diffently were able to control themselves, as we should also.

Pressing On, No there is no terminology such as "prayer language." but putting the scriptures together we see that Paul is talking about prayer, as well as edifying the church

.

I would rather prefer to use "speaking in tongues" as the Disciples never used any other term.

I would have to consider Paul's whole counsel and instruction in I Cor 14.

In I Corinthians 14:5, Paul says, "I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied:"

Notice that in the Greek, "rather" is defined to mean, "more, in a greater degree".

Paul is saying, "I would that you spoke with tongues, but in a larger degree, that you would prophesy."

We, therefore, cannot come to the emphatic conclusion that speaking in tongues is nixed in a church body, other than tongues and interpretation. "More" or "in a greater degree" implies that you are or should be doing more than something else.

I Corinthians 14:19, "had rather" is defined differently. It means, "to will, wish" - "Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding,...",

In essence, Paul is saying, "I wish to speak with five words of my understanding."

Paul wouldn't give instructions that would contradict each other.

He ends the instruction with - 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. (40) Let all things be done decently and in order.

Earnestly desire to prophesy more, don't forbid anyone to speak in tongues. Let everything be done decently and in order

.
__________________

Pressing On wrote

Paul wouldn't give instructions that would contradict each other

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Right! And I don't mean that he did.

The Gifts of the Spirit was a new surprise from God to the church. And it seems that many didn't know how to control or handle the gifts. Therefore Paul wrote 1 Cor. 12-13-14 as instructions on how they were to be in self control and yet desire and use the Gifts that God gave.

I believe that many were trying to speak in tongues all at the same time, as we see in many Charismatic churches and on TV. They were abusing the Gifts.

He wanted them to use them in the church, all of them, including speaking in tongues, because when it is interpreted, it is Prophecy and will edify the church.
But he wanted them to speak one at a time and to keep order in the church. The disorder that is reported in some churches, is not of God.

But when He told them that he spoke in tongues more than them all. If he did it in the churches, they would have known it, and he wouldn't have had to tell them.
Then he told them in the church he would rather speak five words of understanding than to speak in tongues. I believe he was also telling them, to pray in tongues at home.
Who doesn't need constantly to have their spirit edified?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by renee819

I believe he was also telling them, to pray in tongues at home.

I guess we will have to disagree on this.

Again, I Cor 14:5, says, "I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather/more; in a greater degree that ye prophesied:"

"More" or "in a greater degree" cannot mean nix it and only pray in tongues at home. Unless we are handing out duct tape at the door, I don't see how someone is going to stop a move of God during a service.

[renee819]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I guess we will have to disagree on this.

Again, I Cor 14:5, says, "I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather/more; in a greater degree that ye prophesied:"

"More" or "in a greater degree" cannot mean nix it and only pray in tongues at home. Unless we are handing out duct tape at the door, I don't see how someone is going to stop a move of God during a service.

Pressing On, What are we disagreeing on?

I'm not advocating stopping people from speaking in unknown tongues at church. Or anything to stop the flow of the Spirit.

But I don't think that all should be speaking in tongues at the same time. We must take the Word for what it means, an not what is popular today.

1Corinthians 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God

.

When I pray in church, as I said before, it is easier to pray in tongues than in my normal language, but I pray quietly to myself, because, Paul wrote,

1 Corinthians 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
:16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
:17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified

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It is evident, is it not, that Paul didn't want them all speaking at the same time. Nor did he pray, in church, in tongues. Therefore you have to ask, where did he pray in tongues more than all of them?

And then we look at he scripture that you gave,

Again, I Cor 14:5, says, "I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather/more; in a greater degree that ye prophesied:"

Paul wishes that they all spoke in Unknown tongues. Why? Because it would edify their spiritual life. But rather that they prophesied. Why? Because whether it was the interpretation of tongues, or pure prophecy, it would benefit those that were listening. Edify the whole church.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by renee819

Pressing On, What are we disagreeing on?

I'm not advocating stopping people from speaking in unknown tongues at church. Or anything to stop the flow of the Spirit.

But I don't think that all should be speaking in tongues at the same time. We must take the Word for what it means, an not what is popular today.

.

When I pray in church, as I said before, it is easier to pray in tongues than in my normal language, but I pray quietly to myself, because, Paul wrote,

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It is evident, is it not, that Paul didn't want them all speaking at the same time. Nor did he pray, in church, in tongues. Therefore you have to ask, where did he pray in tongues more than all of them?

And then we look at he scripture that you gave,


Paul wishes that they all spoke in Unknown tongues. Why? Because it would edify their spiritual life. But rather that they prophesied. Why? Because whether it was the interpretation of tongues, or pure prophecy, it would benefit those that were listening. Edify the whole church.

I think that what you are saying is confusing or I am misunderstanding you completely.

You appear to be saying:

1) I'm not advocating people stop speaking in unknown tongues in church.
2) When I pray in church, it is easier to pray in tongues than my normal language.
3) Paul never prayed in tongues in church.

I think you are using the English translation of "rather" as meaning "to prefer that to", but the Greek is using "more/in a greater degree". Whatever is being said, I want to know what the Greek is saying.

[renee819]

Pressing On wrote

I think that what you are saying is confusing or I am misunderstanding you completely.

You appear to be saying:

1) I'm not advocating people stop speaking in unknown tongues in church.
2) When I pray in church, it is easier to pray in tongues than my normal language.
3) Paul never prayed in tongues in church.

I think you are using the English translation of "rather" as meaning "to prefer that to", but the Greek is using "more/in a greater degree". Whatever is being said, I want to know what the Greek is saying

.


Pressing On wrote,

I think that what you are saying is confusing or I am misunderstanding you completely

.

I believe it is the latter---”or I am misunderstanding you completely. “ I really don't know how it is confusing.

Pressing On wrote

You appear to be saying:

1) I'm not advocating people stop speaking in unknown tongues in church.

And I never will. Paul didn't either, only that they behave decently and in order, in speaking one at a time. And waiting for the interpretation.
Pressing On, are you going to a Charismatic Church where all speak in tongues at the same time?

2) When I pray in church, it is easier to pray in tongues than my normal language.

But the rest of what I said, gives the sense to it.

Renee wrote
“but I pray quietly to myself, because, Paul wrote,”

1 Corinthians 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
:16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
:17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified

To paraphrase, Paul isn't saying that he prays in church, but when he prays n the spirit, he doesn't understand what he is saying, so he will pray with the understanding also. But if he prayed with the Spirit, (since he doesn't know what he is saying and those that hear him don't know either, then how could anyone bless that “seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? “

People were using tongues for Religious Pride, as I've seen many do today. “See, I'm holier than you, because I speak in tongues.” and especially on TV. I can't stand to watch any of those preachers.

3) Paul never prayed in tongues in church

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If Paul prayed in tongues in the churches, he could not have written the 16th and 17th verse.

Maybe I shouldn't say, he never. Because he may have prayed as I do, quietly to myself. A person sitting next to me, wouldn't even know that I was praying in tongues.

Pressing On, what is confusing? Are you saying that all should be speaking in tongues at the same time?