An Apology

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Because he wants to prove that there are people here (namely Bro. Epley) who fellowship with people who espouse that doctrine, and thereby endorse/approve of it in practice, making them as evil as the people who believe it. (TIC)

It's an extended attempt to malign Bro. Epley's character by proving that he fellowships with evil people. Or at least, that's how its coming across to me.

This is about the hypocrisy and denial and evasion of not only epley, but of others on the forum.

Being aware of what someone believes and not crushing them for it isn't the same as turning a blind eye to it.

LOL. You're speaking about "not crushing" on this forum? Where those ultracons attempt to 'crush' anyone do dare disagree with them? 'All trinitarians are going to hell' is a statement of tolerance?

Watch those who 'crush' here on the forum. Aren't they they ultracons?

If I was aware that one of my friends held this view, I may occasionally discuss it with them, but I wouldn't treat them like they were evil people. If, however, they chose to let their child accelerate toward death and seek no treatment, I wouldn't hesitate to call DHS and report them for neglect and/or child endangerment. That isn't turning a blind eye.

I see you've never dealt with those in those kinds of 'apostolic' churches so you don't know the cult-like environment and control those preachers have over the people. In some, no major decision is made, such as buying a car, buying a house, ect, without first consulting the pastor. If the pastor isn't consulted, everyone looks at that member as rebellious, as not submitting to the authority of the pastor.

You don't know what you're talking about if you've never dealt with those religious spirits that are so prevalent in those churches. They are strong and deep and perverted.

Fortunately, in my 37 years of being in the Apostolic church, I have NEVER been presented with that situation. Amazing, since we fellowshiped with quite a few conservative independents when I was growing up--including the former pastor and people from Racine, MO, where Bro. Epley pastors now.

Fortunately, in my 40 years in oneness pentecostalism, I never attended such a church either. But I knew about them and still know about them.

The only real situation I know of is the one that involved my own Dad, which I've already recounted on this thread. My Grandfather did the right thing, and my Dad was flexible enough to reverse his views, although I think it still troubled him that his faith wasn't "enough."

Yes, I thank you for sharing that, not for condemnation but as an example of how God can deliver from such practices.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by seekerman

...I see you've never dealt with those in those kinds of 'apostolic' churches so you don't know the cult-like environment and control those preachers have over the people. In some, no major decision is made, such as buying a car, buying a house, ect, without first consulting the pastor. If the pastor isn't consulted, everyone looks at that member as rebellious, as not submitting to the authority of the pastor.

I was a member of an ultra conservative church for 4.5 years, and it almost "crushed" me. I had a terrible experience, but ultimately I was proud of how we handled it and how we removed ourselves from the situation (with almost all credit given to my husband who wasn't afraid to stand up against someone who is really *just a man*). I do understand the controlling environment and the fear that motivates the obedience by the saints. I know what it's like to be yelled at from the pulpit, embarrassed in front of the whole church, be falsely accused because someone said "God said..." something to them. I even understand the fear that can come from seeing a pastor predict someone's death and have it come to pass. That sort of stuff gives credibility to the pastor and can make him very, very intimidating. That happened twice when I was attending that particular church.

My thing is, though, I refuse to judge all conservatives by my personal experience. I admit that I have knee jerk reactions to people who hold certain views because I'm reminded of the church I was in. I deliberately suppress those feelings in myself, because I feel they are unfair and prejudiced. I want to be in the position of taking each person at face value and giving everyone the benefit of the doubt. That's how I want to be treated, too.

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Seekerman, I'm facing it just fine--and so is everyone else. What is objectionable is this assertion:

You are associating this directly with Apostolic theology and you originally implied that it was exclusive to Apostolics. It isn't. It's a fringe doctrine found in many different religions. Ergo, it isn't "Apostolic theology" that lends itself to people doing this; it's something else. There is a common thread, but since there are so many people from OTHER religions who also fall into this category, the common thread is NOT Apostolic doctrine/theology.

I'm associating it directly with some of those who practice such things within oneness pentecostalism.

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I was a member of an ultra conservative church for 4.5 years, and it almost "crushed" me. I had a terrible experience, but ultimately I was proud of how we handled it and how we removed ourselves from the situation (with almost all credit given to my husband who wasn't afraid to stand up against someone who is really *just a man*). I do understand the controlling environment and the fear that motivates the obedience by the saints. I know what it's like to be yelled at from the pulpit, embarrassed in front of the whole church, be falsely accused because someone said "God said..." something to them. I even understand the fear that can come from seeing a pastor predict someone's death and have it come to pass. That sort of stuff gives credibility to the pastor and can make him very, very intimidating. That happened twice when I was attending that particular church.

My thing is, though, I refuse to judge all conservatives by my personal experience. I admit that I have knee jerk reactions to people who hold certain views because I'm reminded of the church I was in. I deliberately suppress those feelings in myself, because I feel they are unfair and prejudiced. I want to be in the position of taking each person at face value and giving everyone the benefit of the doubt. That's how I want to be treated, too.

You then do understand how abusive those kinds of churches can be. Of course they're not the norm for oneness pentecostalism, but they ARE a part of oneness pentecostalism as unfortunate as that might be. I'm glad you escaped. And I do understand the accusations and condemnations from those you escaped toward you and I commend you for returning hate with love.

Be blessed in the place God had put you.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by seekerman

LOL. You're speaking about "not crushing" on this forum? Where those ultracons attempt to 'crush' anyone do dare disagree with them? 'All trinitarians are going to hell' is a statement of tolerance?

Watch those who 'crush' here on the forum. Aren't they they ultracons?

How can anyone be 'crushed' on an internet forum? Are people THAT feebleminded? I can see where someone may be 'made angry' by something someone says, or irritated, or insulted, or whatever, but crushed? Seriously? This is like, OHHHHH so DRAMATIC!!! lol

BTW, saying 'all trinitarians are lost' is not a statement of tolerance. And why should it be? If a person believes trinitarians are lost, then it would be a lack of love that would induce them to NOT MENTION IT. If you believe someone is lost, and say nothing, what does that say about your concern for their welfare?

All this 'tolerance' garbage is just that, garbage. If a person thinks I am lost, tell me! If you think my doctrine is wrong, evil, stupid, silly, whatever, speak your mind!

So-called 'Tolerance' = 'don't say anything contrary to what someone else believes'. Sorry, that's not how things work. Your so-called tolerance you seem to be expecting is nothing else than having everyone not say anything contrary to whatever it is 'that must not be contradicted'. Every doctrine must be accepted, given equal respect, treated AS IF they are ALL 'correct'. Or else, everything must be treated as if it is ALL 'personal opinion' and 'equally valid'. Which is balderbunkum. (that term is trademarked, by the way...)

You complain about 'ultra cons who don't want any dissenting viewpoints' yet that is exactly what YOU are calling for yourself in the name of this politically correct so-called 'tolerance'.

meh.

I see

No you don't, you just make judgements about people's integrity, intelligence, experience, motives etc based on what you read from them. If a person doesn't tow your line, 'you see' they are somehow 'inferior' in wisdom, experience, love, understanding, whatever.

You do that which you condemn in others.

You don't know what you're talking about if you've never dealt with those religious spirits that are so prevalent in those churches. They are strong and deep and perverted.

See? 'You don't know what you're talking about', ie ad hominen, belittle the opposing person instead of refuting their statements or viewpoint. Amazing how much you seem to know about everyone else...

Fortunately, in my 40 years in oneness pentecostalism, I never attended such a church either. But I knew about them and still know about them.

You don't know what you're talking about. If you've never attended such a church you have no idea what's going on in such churches and wouldn't even know how to identify one. You are probably just going off hearsay from folks in the churches you attended, like 'Oh, ABC church is weird, cultic, they like their babies to die and hate doctors, thank the Lord WE have the truth and know what WE'RE talking about!'

lol

Seriously, seekerman, you seem oblivious to what many people, of all stripes and points of view, have tried to point out to you - you often come across as arrogant, vindictive, unfair, hypocritical, and generally whiney.

Shouldn't that suggest to you that maybe you need to re-examine how you approach things here?

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by Esaias

You don't know what you're talking about. If you've never attended such a church you have no idea what's going on in such churches and wouldn't even know how to identify one.

I have/had relatives going to such churches. And some of them can be identified by the graves of infants and children, husbands and wives, fathers and mothers who followed the swill teaching of those kinds of churches.

Some combination of suffering of the innocent, death, cult-like behavior, dictatorship and oppression usually follow such churches so no, they're not that hard to identify at all.

You are probably just going off hearsay from folks in the churches you attended, like 'Oh, ABC church is weird, cultist, they like their babies to die and hate doctors, thank the Lord WE have the truth and know what WE'RE talking about!'

Oh, I don't think anyone "like their babies to die". I'm sure their heart is broken but the 'apostolic' cult-like environment that they're a part of is so strong, the spirit is so controlling the dominerring of the pastor is so powerful, they choose to watch their children suffer, and sometimes die, rather than stand against the practices of the 'apostolic' church they attend.

[n david]

Originally Posted by seekerman

Where have I said anything about "mass graves"? Are you aware that your exaggeration is the same as lying?

Mass: relating to, done by, or affecting large numbers of people or things.

You have consistently posted about "men, women, children and infants" who have died and are in graves because of this alleged doctrine. It's semantics you're arguing. You still claim that a "large number" (ie mass) of people have died.

The only one exaggerating or lying is you.

Originally Posted by seekerman

If epley comes back and actually dialogs about those with whom he fellowships who practices such theology, if any, maybe he could name names.

Wait, why do you need Epley to name names? YOU made the accusations, not him. Cowardice? Afraid of legal repercussions if your hearsay isn't true?

Originally Posted by seekerman

And again, I'm not going to name names. I will point out that every minister I know who pastors a church which practice such twisted theology self-label themselves as 'apostolic'.

I address this towards the bottom...these would be ministers you've only heard of, but never actually were personally in attendance in their church. Guess that may be another reason you won't/can't name names.

Originally Posted by seekerman

I don't care what you call the truth, it's up to you how to handle it. If you don't believe it, fine.

Well, the truth is the truth. Either you have it or you don't. In most cases, when people refuse to get specific about allegations, it's because they really don't have specifics. They're either spreading gossip and hearsay, or completely fabricating things.

Originally Posted by seekerman

But it sure would have been interesting if epley had stayed around just a bit longer to actually answer if he fellowshipped with churches where children suffered, and sometimes died, for lack of medical attention. I'm guessing he could name more names than I. But I believe we could name some of the same names.

Again, looking to Epley to bail you out and name the names. Make bold statements, but when rubber meets the road, you have a flat.

Originally Posted by seekerman

If epley just hadn't removed himself from the sinners here on the forum possibly he could have helped with specific names. Or maybe not.

There you go again.... I don't think you have any names.

Originally Posted by seekerman

You don't know what you're talking about if you've never dealt with those religious spirits that are so prevalent in those churches. They are strong and deep and perverted.

Originally Posted by seekerman

Fortunately, in my 40 years in oneness pentecostalism, I never attended such a church either. But I knew about them and still know about them.

Oh the irony! You say MissBrattified doesn't know what she's talking about...then you admit to (in your 40 years experience) never personally attending a church with this alleged doctrine!

Tell me, how do you know of these alleged graves or Pastors who preach this alleged doctrine? Hearsay? There's another legal word used for people who make statements like you have (and perhaps it's the reason you're too afraid to personally name these people)...it's called libel.

[tv1a]

Fact Epley considers Bennicasa as a brother in Christ in one post while stating in other posts Bennicasa's end time views are "damnable heresies". Too bad Epley is intolerant of trinitarians. He dodged the inconsistencies while his hombres circled the wagon. Incistencies? Yes.

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by n david

You have consistently posted about "men, women, children and infants" who have died and are in graves because of this alleged doctrine. It's semantics you're arguing. You still claim that a "large number" (ie mass) of people have died.

The only one exaggerating or lying is you.

So you lied when you said that I said "mass graves".

Glad we got that straight for I've never said such a thing.

Wait, why do you need Epley to name names? YOU made the accusations, not him. Cowardice? Afraid of legal repercussions if your hearsay isn't true?

I've pretty well accomplished what I wanted with epley and I'm not surprised at his unwillingness to openly speak of those possible atrocities in his fellowship.

Apparently you haven't read the comments of others on the forum which acknowledge such behavior. Some will say that it's such a few it doesn't matter, it's a fringe element, it's not worth bothering with. The NUMBER isn't the issue, the issue is if it's happening. And it has.

There has been legal ramifications with some....as it should be.

I address this towards the bottom...these would be ministers you've only heard of, but never actually were personally in attendance in their church. Guess that may be another reason you won't/can't name names.

Nope, I haven't personally attended their church. As I pointed out in my last post, I have relatives who have attended and I have experiences with those who attend such cult-like 'apostolic' churches. Of course I could name names. So could epley I suspect. I understand his unwillingness to name names and I also understand his unwillingness to speak openly and directly about those in his fellowship who practice such things....if any.

Well, the truth is the truth. Either you have it or you don't. In most cases, when people refuse to get specific about allegations, it's because they really don't have specifics. They're either spreading gossip and hearsay, or completely fabricating things.

Right, either it's the truth or it isn't. Either epley associates with some who practice such things, or he doesn't. Either that exists or it's a fabrication.

Epley skedaddled instead of answering. Others here have admitted that the practice has occurred but it wasn't a significant number who practiced such swill. The number, even is it's one (and it's not) isn't the issue. Who does it isn't the issue. The issue is concerning the truth of such a doctrine.

Again, looking to Epley to bail you out and name the names. Make bold statements, but when rubber meets the road, you have a flat.

Tell that to the others who have admitted such practices, however so small.

Tell me, how do you know of these alleged graves or Pastors who preach this alleged doctrine?

Relatives, seeing the graves, knowing the people personally who have suffered the results of such twisted doctrine in the self-labeled 'apostolic' sect.

Hearsay? There's another legal word used for people who make statements like you have (and perhaps it's the reason you're too afraid to personally name these people)...it's called libel.

Maybe that's why epley skedaddled instead of naming names. The thing is, i didn't ask him to name names.....just address the question if some of those which whom he fellowshipped had such occurrences in their church.

Alas, I guess we'll never hear from him again.

[Esaias]

Why bash brother Epley when he is not here to defend himself?

Starting to remind me of my old elementary schoolyard...