Question About Submission

[bishoph]

Originally Posted by renee819

Esaias wrote,


Easias, it is both. Should she submit to false standards? And, I believe that if the men were submitted to God, instead of submitted to peer pressure, they would see that the standards are false. And if men were submitted to God, they would teach what true holiness is and also godly authority.
What wife would rebel against a husband, that loved his wife as his own body?

As to the bold section......Pure RUBBISH! Respectfully Sis. Renee I must disagree. I can without hesitation state that I am not under any peer pressure, wife pressure, or any other manmade pressure, and I BELIEVE in standards. The problem we (especially in Apostolicism/Pentecostalism) have is that standards, for the most part, are taught as holiness which is NOT what holiness is.

Standards are part/parcel to sanctification. In the OT the nation of Israel was to be sanctified from the world and unto God. Signs of their sanctification were standards concerning dress, diet, and worship/ceremony. One can argue about the ridiculous standards they had, but God set them in place regardless of how silly they seemed to them or us. For example. they could not wear clothes that were made of mixed fabric (i.e. cotton/wool or cotton/silk). Why? (I think it would be safe to say that nearly all of us would be lost (law breakers) today if this law was to be enforced today. Just look at your tags....nearly everything we wear is a mixture of materials.) The only thing we can see as the reason WHY God made this rule was so that when people looked at an Israelite they knew....those people are different....much like the Amish of today. The list can go on and on....603 of them to be exact, many of which have no reasonable explanation other than that God wanted His people to be different than those around them.

Standards are NOT what saves us, nor do they make us holy. We all know people who abide by "the standards" who are vile and wicked in their attitude and spirit bearing ungodly fruit in their lives/actions. They are "set apart" in appearance but do not possess an ounce of holiness. The truth is that even the "liberal" among us have some "standards." The challenge is who's standard do we abide by? Personally I believe there are absolute biblical standards which apply universally. Then there are standards which may be a personal "setting apart" unto God. And IMO standards are not limited to dress. There are standards of conduct and worship that make us different as well.

IMO the biggest problem we have with modesty and other biblical standards, is that we are too caught up in adapting to the culture and practices of the country we are passing through instead of the country we are citizens of.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by bishoph

As to the bold section......Pure RUBBISH! Respectfully Sis. Renee I must disagree. I can without hesitation state that I am not under any peer pressure, wife pressure, or any other manmade pressure, and I BELIEVE in standards. The problem we (especially in Apostolicism/Pentecostalism) have is that standards, for the most part, are taught as holiness which is NOT what holiness is.

Thank you for admitting that standards taught as holiness are NOT what holiness is. It is hard to get most OP to admit that.

Originally Posted by bishoph

Standards are part/parcel to sanctification. In the OT the nation of Israel was to be sanctified from the world and unto God. Signs of their sanctification were standards concerning dress, diet, and worship/ceremony. One can argue about the ridiculous standards they had, but God set them in place regardless of how silly they seemed to them or us. For example. they could not wear clothes that were made of mixed fabric (i.e. cotton/wool or cotton/silk). Why? (I think it would be safe to say that nearly all of us would be lost (law breakers) today if this law was to be enforced today. Just look at your tags....nearly everything we wear is a mixture of materials.) The only thing we can see as the reason WHY God made this rule was so that when people looked at an Israelite they knew....those people are different....much like the Amish of today. The list can go on and on....603 of them to be exact, many of which have no reasonable explanation other than that God wanted His people to be different than those around them.

So, why do you pick and choose which "standards" from the OT to apply? IF you truly believe that Jesus came, and abolished the law, and changed it all at Calvary, and that the greatest commandment from Him is to love God, and love one another... why are you going BACK to the OT to pick, choose and establish rules for today?

Originally Posted by bishoph

Standards are NOT what saves us, nor do they make us holy. We all know people who abide by "the standards" who are vile and wicked in their attitude and spirit bearing ungodly fruit in their lives/actions. They are "set apart" in appearance but do not possess an ounce of holiness. The truth is that even the "liberal" among us have some "standards." The challenge is who's standard do we abide by? Personally I believe there are absolute biblical standards which apply universally. Then there are standards which may be a personal "setting apart" unto God. And IMO standards are not limited to dress. There are standards of conduct and worship that make us different as well.

I totally agree that the teaching of standards has created a mindset that if you comply on the external, the inside slides by without a glance. It is a sad thing, but if you look at the Pharisees in Jesus' time, you'll see Jesus accusing them of exactly the same thing.

Originally Posted by bishoph

IMO the biggest problem we have with modesty and other biblical standards, is that we are too caught up in adapting to the culture and practices of the country we are passing through instead of the country we are citizens of.

I don't have a problem with women dressing modestly, with long hair, and such. The problem is when these things are equated with *SALVATION*, and you must understand that this is the main problem with all this.

[renee819]

Renee wrote,

Easias, it is both. Should she submit to false standards? And, I believe that if the men were submitted to God, instead of submitted to peer pressure, they would see that the standards are false. And if men were submitted to God, they would teach what true holiness is and also godly authority.
What wife would rebel against a husband, that loved his wife as his own body?

Bishop wrote,

As to the bold section......Pure RUBBISH! Respectfully Sis. Renee I must disagree. I can without hesitation state that I am not under any peer pressure, wife pressure, or any other manmade pressure, and I BELIEVE in standards. The problem we (especially in Apostolicism/Pentecostalism) have is that standards, for the most part, are taught as holiness which is NOT what holiness is.

No Bishop, it is not pure RUBBISH. I too have standards, but I know that my standards are not my holiness.

The RUBBISH is, as you said yourself, “The problem we (especially in Apostolicism/Pentecostalism) have is that standards, for the most part, are taught as holiness which is NOT what holiness is.”

So why do “WE” (maybe not you) teach that “standards are holiness?”

Do the Pastors, not know any better? Are they afraid they will lose their license? Afraid they will lose some of their members? Don't they know, if they teach that standards are holiness they are teaching a lie? Stunting the growth of their members, in not teaching them what true holiness is.

If you teach your members, what true holiness is, then you are rare, and I applaud you.

[Abiding Now]

Originally Posted by renee819

Renee wrote,


Bishop wrote,


No Bishop, it is not pure RUBBISH. I too have standards, but I know that my standards are not my holiness.

The RUBBISH is, as you said yourself, “The problem we (especially in Apostolicism/Pentecostalism) have is that standards, for the most part, are taught as holiness which is NOT what holiness is.”

So why do “WE” (maybe not you) teach that “standards are holiness?”

Do the Pastors, not know any better? Are they afraid they will lose their license? Afraid they will lose some of their members? Don't they know, if they teach that standards are holiness they are teaching a lie? Stunting the growth of their members, in not teaching them what true holiness is.

If you teach your members, what true holiness is, then you are rare, and I applaud you.

Would you please define "true holiness".

[bishoph]

Originally Posted by renee819

Esaias wrote,


Easias, it is both. Should she submit to false standards? And, I believe that if the men were submitted to God, instead of submitted to peer pressure, they would see that the standards are false. And if men were submitted to God, they would teach what true holiness is and also godly authority.
What wife would rebel against a husband, that loved his wife as his own body?

Originally Posted by renee819

Renee wrote,


No Bishop, it is not pure RUBBISH. I too have standards, but I know that my standards are not my holiness.

The RUBBISH is, as you said yourself, “The problem we (especially in Apostolicism/Pentecostalism) have is that standards, for the most part, are taught as holiness which is NOT what holiness is.”

So why do “WE” (maybe not you) teach that “standards are holiness?”

Do the Pastors, not know any better? Are they afraid they will lose their license? Afraid they will lose some of their members? Don't they know, if they teach that standards are holiness they are teaching a lie? Stunting the growth of their members, in not teaching them what true holiness is.

If you teach your members, what true holiness is, then you are rare, and I applaud you.

Sis. I stand by my words. Your statement was "if the men were submitted to God, instead of submitted to peer pressure, they would see that the standards are false." So in your assessment, if a person observes standards they are not submitted to God, and IF they are submitted to God then they should realize that standards are false. False in what sense of the word? Are you saying that standards cannot/should not be taught as a matter of separation from the world? Or are you saying that standards are ALL just man-made rules which should NEVER be taught because they are made up and not true biblical teachings?

You even stated that you have standards.....but according to you they are false. Why then do you have standards?

I agree with your statement "If you teach your members, what true holiness is, then you are rare" because FEW pastors on either side (conserve/lib) teach true holiness.

[renee819]

Bishoph wrote,

Sis. I stand by my words. Your statement was "if the men were submitted to God, instead of submitted to peer pressure, they would see that the standards are false." So in your assessment, if a person observes standards they are not submitted to God,

Where did that come from? Standards are not false, but some of the standards taught are false. The way they are taught is wrong, trying to use scripture to prove what they, the Pastors, are expected to teach. There are many godly women, submitted to God, bound by 'men's standards.' Or if a lady is in Leadership she usually goes along with the “men's standards'”

Where in the Bible, does it say that a women's sleeves have to be certain length? Or dresses a certain length, (although I do love the longer skirts) Or men can't have a beard? Even though Jesus had one. Or women can't wear women's pants?
(I never did understand about the hair) but I don't and won't cut mine. (But then, I love long hair)
Or that women can't wear jewelry? They go to the OT to preach against women's pants, why don't they also look at the jewelry that Rebecca and other women had, in the OT? And many other things, sometimes according to the Pastors convictions.

Bishoph wrote,

and IF they are submitted to God then they should realize that standards are false. False in what sense of the word?

Not all standards are false. But standards taught as holiness, is false. And it doesn't take much study in the Word to find that out. If the leaders were submitted to God, and studying the scriptures concerning this, in stead of following the leader, they would see that they are teaching false standards.

Bishoph wrote,

Are you saying that standards cannot/should not be taught as a matter of separation from the world? Or are you saying that standards are ALL just man-made rules which should NEVER be taught because they are made up and not true biblical teachings?

If a Pastor wants standards they should be taught as standards. For instance, if I went to a school and after I got there they said, everybody has to wear a uniform, this is our standard. If I wanted to go to that school, I would go and buy me a uniform.
But if they said, this saith the Lord, you wear this uniform. I'd turn around and walk out.

Christians should be taught “modesty' the kind that comes from the heart. And holiness seeking to please God with a pure heart. Any modest lady, seeking true purity of heart, will not have to be told how to dress. And she will not look like the world either.

Have you seen how the world dresses lately. Much of it is plain ugly. Of course, I'm 82 years old, and maybe a little old fashioned. But it is my opinion, and this is just my opinion, 'that a modest Pentecostal lady, turned loose to dress according to her convictions, would outshine the worldly costums, any old time.

Bishoph wrote

You even stated that you have standards.....but according to you they are false. Why then do you have standards?

I believe I've stated my standards above, and no, they are not false. A person has to have standards, but they should come from their own convictions. When a person is forced to adhere to a standard that is not their conviction, their heart isn't in it.

Bishoph wrote,

I agree with your statement "If you teach your members, what true holiness is, then you are rare" because FEW pastors on either side (conserve/lib) teach true holiness

.

And that is exactly what I am talking about. WHY!!!!, isn't TRUE HOLINESS taught in our churches, instead of standards being taught as holiness? There has to be a reason.

[Mrsnt]

Originally Posted by renee819

Bishoph wrote,


Where did that come from? Standards are not false, but some of the standards taught are false. The way they are taught is wrong, trying to use scripture to prove what they, the Pastors, are expected to teach. There are many godly women, submitted to God, bound by 'men's standards.' Or if a lady is in Leadership she usually goes along with the “men's standards'”

Where in the Bible, does it say that a women's sleeves have to be certain length? Or dresses a certain length, (although I do love the longer skirts) Or men can't have a beard? Even though Jesus had one. Or women can't wear women's pants?
(I never did understand about the hair) but I don't and won't cut mine. (But then, I love long hair)
Or that women can't wear jewelry? They go to the OT to preach against women's pants, why don't they also look at the jewelry that Rebecca and other women had, in the OT? And many other things, sometimes according to the Pastors convictions.

Bishoph wrote,


Not all standards are false. But standards taught as holiness, is false. And it doesn't take much study in the Word to find that out. If the leaders were submitted to God, and studying the scriptures concerning this, in stead of following the leader, they would see that they are teaching false standards.

Bishoph wrote,


If a Pastor wants standards they should be taught as standards. For instance, if I went to a school and after I got there they said, everybody has to wear a uniform, this is our standard. If I wanted to go to that school, I would go and buy me a uniform.
But if they said, this saith the Lord, you wear this uniform. I'd turn around and walk out.

Christians should be taught “modesty' the kind that comes from the heart. And holiness seeking to please God with a pure heart. Any modest lady, seeking true purity of heart, will not have to be told how to dress. And she will not look like the world either.

Have you seen how the world dresses lately. Much of it is plain ugly. Of course, I'm 82 years old, and maybe a little old fashioned. But it is my opinion, and this is just my opinion, 'that a modest Pentecostal lady, turned loose to dress according to her convictions, would outshine the worldly costums, any old time.

Bishoph wrote


I believe I've stated my standards above, and no, they are not false. A person has to have standards, but they should come from their own convictions. When a person is forced to adhere to a standard that is not their conviction, their heart isn't in it.

Bishoph wrote,
.

And that is exactly what I am talking about. WHY!!!!, isn't TRUE HOLINESS taught in our churches, instead of standards being taught as holiness? There has to be a reason.

Excellent reply! You're a wise lady.

[Abiding Now]

Originally Posted by bishoph

As to the bold section......Pure RUBBISH! Respectfully Sis. Renee I must disagree. I can without hesitation state that I am not under any peer pressure, wife pressure, or any other manmade pressure, and I BELIEVE in standards. The problem we (especially in Apostolicism/Pentecostalism) have is that standards, for the most part, are taught as holiness which is NOT what holiness is.

Standards are part/parcel to sanctification. In the OT the nation of Israel was to be sanctified from the world and unto God. Signs of their sanctification were standards concerning dress, diet, and worship/ceremony. One can argue about the ridiculous standards they had, but God set them in place regardless of how silly they seemed to them or us. For example. they could not wear clothes that were made of mixed fabric (i.e. cotton/wool or cotton/silk). Why? (I think it would be safe to say that nearly all of us would be lost (law breakers) today if this law was to be enforced today. Just look at your tags....nearly everything we wear is a mixture of materials.) The only thing we can see as the reason WHY God made this rule was so that when people looked at an Israelite they knew....those people are different....much like the Amish of today. The list can go on and on....603 of them to be exact, many of which have no reasonable explanation other than that God wanted His people to be different than those around them.

Standards are NOT what saves us, nor do they make us holy. We all know people who abide by "the standards" who are vile and wicked in their attitude and spirit bearing ungodly fruit in their lives/actions. They are "set apart" in appearance but do not possess an ounce of holiness. The truth is that even the "liberal" among us have some "standards." The challenge is who's standard do we abide by? Personally I believe there are absolute biblical standards which apply universally. Then there are standards which may be a personal "setting apart" unto God. And IMO standards are not limited to dress. There are standards of conduct and worship that make us different as well.

IMO the biggest problem we have with modesty and other biblical standards, is that we are too caught up in adapting to the culture and practices of the country we are passing through instead of the country we are citizens of.