Sinful housework

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

MTD, what is your definition of perfection? Since... questions are being asked

BTW... I agree with what you said above. I think we are on the same page, albeit with perhaps some different terminology.

We must not think too carelessly that once we have the spirit of Christ within us that we are automatically perfected. No, it is a progressive work in motion, and something that we continue to work on.

I don't see perfection as something that happens one day, and then you never have to face any sin, temptations, struggles, or battles again. I just don't see that in scripture.

I do see admonishment to continue the fight of faith though. I do see the overwhelming majority of NT scriptures admonishing believers how to pull off the sin holds in their lives. That is why, I don't believe perfection is a one-time event that happens that we never have to worry about it again. It is an ongoing thing that will not be completed until we attain our glorified bodies.

I would define perfection very simply as those who walk with heart purity before the Lord.

If we put this few verses under examination I think it gives us a picture of how Christ sees perfection.

24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Eph. 5:24-27

Believe me Sister I agree with you its not once attained always possessed. Its our life day to day. There are seasons when it seems easy. And yet there are seasons when we must suffer in the flesh, denying the temptations that come our way. Surely if it were not for the fact that GREATER IS HE THAT IS IN YOU THAN HE THAT IS IN THE WORLD......we would give in.

Jesus said it would be better for us to gouge out our eyes than use them to sin. He said we must take the cross and deny self daily. So I don't teach it once settled for all time.

In the garden Jesus was sorely tempted but prayed through unto the victory "not my will but thine be done".

As with him so with us. Even in our last hours we may have to battle great temptations. We can find strength in the hope of our reward! That it will be greater than our sufferings.

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Titus 2:11-13

When he comes we will be rewarded with the magnificent blessing of immortality, even eternal life! We will rule the nations with him! Peter said the thought of it was joy unspeakable and full of glory! Peace, Mike

[renee819]

Amen, to you both, Mike and Kept. It is an ongoing battle.

[Aquila]

Let's look at the text...

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Eph. 5:25-27

This is talking about marriage and the relationship between husband and wife. Husbands are to love their wives as Christ loves the church. Husbands are to give of themselves as Christ gave of Himself, that He might present us to Himself a glorious church, not having spot, wrinkle, or any such thing, but that we should be holy and without blemish.

We can draw a lot from this with regards to the relationship between husband and wife. However, let's focus on what is said of the church.

We all believe that the church should be without spot, wrinkle, or any such thing, and that we should be holy and without blemish.

I think the major part of the debate is...

What makes us holy and without blemish? And what is the nature of that "holiness"?

-Is it based on behavior?
-Is it based on disposition?
-Is it based on following a set body of laws?
-Is it based on a legally imputed righteousness in God's eyes?
-Is it based on an imputed righteousness that comes from spiritual union with God?
-Is holiness relative to the process of sanctification?

All these questions come into play. And so many differ on what the Bible teaches regarding these questions.

[Aquila]

I believe the following:

-Is it based on behavior?

Yes and no. Behavior is primarily an indicator, a symptom of the deeper issue. Behavior doesn't always reveal what's in the heart.

-Is it based on disposition?

Yes. Honesty before God concerning one's own soul. This should bring confession and humility.

-Is it based on following a set body of laws?

Yes and no. Is it based on the Mosaic Law code? No. Is it based on the law of love? Yes. So one is called to do two things: 1.) Love God with all their being. 2.) Demonstrate that love for God by loving others as themselves. Beyond these two laws... the rest is simply commentary.

-Is it based on a legally imputed righteousness in God's eyes?

Only with regards to justification and it's relationship to prevenient grace.

-Is it based on an imputed righteousness that comes from spiritual union with God?

YES! You are holy by virtue of God's own Spirit indwelling YOU. And as you learn to submit to the inner promptings of the Spirit (sanctification) you will grow in Christ-likeness. The process has a meaning and a purpose. It is to teach you about yourself... your nature... as you relate to God and His nature. The end of the process is... glorification in absolute perfection at the coming of the LORD.

-Is holiness relative to the process of sanctification?

No. Holiness is the state of being one with the Holy. One is "holy" even as behaviors change through sanctification.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I would define perfection very simply as those who walk with heart purity before the Lord.

If we put this few verses under examination I think it gives us a picture of how Christ sees perfection.

24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Eph. 5:24-27

Believe me Sister I agree with you its not once attained always possessed. Its our life day to day. There are seasons when it seems easy. And yet there are seasons when we must suffer in the flesh, denying the temptations that come our way. Surely if it were not for the fact that GREATER IS HE THAT IS IN YOU THAN HE THAT IS IN THE WORLD......we would give in.

Jesus said it would be better for us to gouge out our eyes than use them to sin. He said we must take the cross and deny self daily. So I don't teach it once settled for all time.

In the garden Jesus was sorely tempted but prayed through unto the victory "not my will but thine be done".

As with him so with us. Even in our last hours we may have to battle great temptations. We can find strength in the hope of our reward! That it will be greater than our sufferings.

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Titus 2:11-13

When he comes we will be rewarded with the magnificent blessing of immortality, even eternal life! We will rule the nations with him! Peter said the thought of it was joy unspeakable and full of glory! Peace, Mike

Thank you for defining perfection as best you know how to....

I too think that the church world as a whole does not understand this battle. Once we submit our lives to Christ, we no longer are the *servants* of sin. That means we no longer are under the authority of the laws of sin.

Yet, that does not mean that we won't have attacks from our flesh nature. However, because we are now servants of God, we can allow the spirit of God to help us lead overcoming lives, in spite of the attacks from the enemy we may face, and we CAN overcome!

Romans 6 is a wonderful chapter that describes this concept so very well. It would do all of us well to read this chapter again in light of the ongoing discussion here.

But the last two verses of the chapter I would like to highlight:

Romans 6:22-23 "But now being made free from sin and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Another scripture pertinent to this discussion:

Romans 8:13 "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit mortify the deeds of the body, YE SHALL LIVE."

We are made free from the LAW of sin, the bondage of sin, as we become servants to God, and through His power we can overcome, and cast off the works of the flesh as they would seek to oppose us, and in the end, have our fruit unto holiness, and everlasting life. It is a work in progress, not to be completed until glorification of these earthly bodies, but our hope is eternal life, of which glory we cannot even comprehend.

The struggles, trials, and things we go through in life, as we continue to cast off the attacks of the enemy and walk overcoming in holiness, and love to the Lord will be worth it all...

Romans 8:18 "For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us."

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by renee819

Amen, to you both, Mike and Kept. It is an ongoing battle.

Yes, Sis. Renee... it is. But we have a great promise awaiting us if we continue the good fight of faith!

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Aquila

You are holy by virtue of God's own Spirit indwelling YOU. And as you learn to submit to the inner promptings of the Spirit (sanctification) you will grow in Christ-likeness. The process has a meaning and a purpose. It is to teach you about yourself... your nature... as you relate to God and His nature. The end of the process is... glorification in absolute perfection at the coming of the LORD.

This is excellent.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

1 Cor 9
26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

In first corinthians Paul at the very beginning of the book makes it clear that he is writing to both saints and to babes in Christ:

1 Cor. 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

It is is also clearly stated in the first chapter that it is possible through Jesus to be blameless :

1 Cor 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is put forth as a futur promise that is to expected in this life.

Look also at the third chapter:

1 Cor 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Go back to chapter two and notice that again Paul points that not of the corinth church was carnal:

1 Cor 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

1 Cor was not written to just those who were sanctified but also to those who were saved but still carnal (unsacntified).

So to respond to the passage that you posted it can be seen that to those who were yet unsanctifed Paul is giving instruction to put down the flesh while at the same time to those who were sanctified Paul was encourageing them to reamin sanctified.

Originally Posted by TGBTG

Heb 12
1 Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

The writer does not here say that we must constantly battle with the flesh which would be the desire to sin but rather here he is speaking of actual sins and shortcomings. Even if he were speaking of the flesh it would not matter because he instructs his readers to lay aside or as the word means " to cast off". Anytime i have cast something off it was gone and i didnt have to carry it anymore. The image would be similar to a carrrying some burden then putting it down. Ince you have put it down it is no longer a burden.

Also notice that in the next verse we see how this is accompllished. Only through Jesus can we be free from carnality or any other sin.

Originally Posted by TGBTG

Heb 12
4 You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin;
5 and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons,

I dont really understand the relevance here?

Originally Posted by TGBTG

James 4
1 What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
7 Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you

This passage from James is a great one to show the reality of the carnal nature in christians but it is also a wonderful passage to show that we may and should be free from it. Notice the very next verse that you did not post:

James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Notice here heart purity is commanded. It should also be seen that this command is not given to sinners since they also receive instruction in this verse but it is addressed to those who have been saved and now are being pulled two ways. The wording here is perfect for those who find themselves in the struggle mentioned in Romans 7.

Originally Posted by TGBTG

1 Peter 2
11 Dear friends, I urge you, as foreigners and exiles, to abstain from sinful desires, which wage war against your soul.

Once again a great verse to show that in a christian there still rages a war but continue to read and you again see that the war can be won:

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

We are to die unto sin and sinful passions. If we are dead to them how can we struggle with them?

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by Luke

In first corinthians Paul at the very beginning of the book makes it clear that he is writing to both saints and to babes in Christ:

1 Cor. 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

It is is also clearly stated in the first chapter that it is possible through Jesus to be blameless :

1 Cor 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is put forth as a futur promise that is to expected in this life.

Look also at the third chapter:

1 Cor 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Go back to chapter two and notice that again Paul points that not of the corinth church was carnal:

1 Cor 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

1 Cor was not written to just those who were sanctified but also to those who were saved but still carnal (unsacntified).

So to respond to the passage that you posted it can be seen that to those who were yet unsanctifed Paul is giving instruction to put down the flesh while at the same time to those who were sanctified Paul was encourageing them to reamin sanctified.




The writer does not here say that we must constantly battle with the flesh which would be the desire to sin but rather here he is speaking of actual sins and shortcomings. Even if he were speaking of the flesh it would not matter because he instructs his readers to lay aside or as the word means " to cast off". Anytime i have cast something off it was gone and i didnt have to carry it anymore. The image would be similar to a carrrying some burden then putting it down. Ince you have put it down it is no longer a burden.

Also notice that in the next verse we see how this is accompllished. Only through Jesus can we be free from carnality or any other sin.



I dont really understand the relevance here?




This passage from James is a great one to show the reality of the carnal nature in christians but it is also a wonderful passage to show that we may and should be free from it. Notice the very next verse that you did not post:

James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Notice here heart purity is commanded. It should also be seen that this command is not given to sinners since they also receive instruction in this verse but it is addressed to those who have been saved and now are being pulled two ways. The wording here is perfect for those who find themselves in the struggle mentioned in Romans 7.




Once again a great verse to show that in a christian there still rages a war but continue to read and you again see that the war can be won:

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

We are to die unto sin and sinful passions. If we are dead to them how can we struggle with them?

ok, it seems like you're saying that some christians are unsanctified while some christians are sanctified...

One question, how many years for you from the time you got saved to the time you got sanctified?

[Aquila]

Wonderful quote I want to share...

"Jesus was forever picking a fight with religion. Maybe it was because religion claimed to be the proper way to know God, when actually it was often the obstacle getting in the way." ~ Jim Palmer