End Time Army of Women Preachers Psalms 68:11

[Sister Alvear]

wow...how awesome...

[rdp]

Originally Posted by ILG

LOL! Yeah, okay.

LOL - I would expect no less from the usual AFF crew .



11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner...I am writing you these instructions so that, 15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church


Explain it away & dance on it all y'all want - it'll still be there in eternity !

[rdp]

Originally Posted by ILG

Yeah, okay, I'd rather not.

Yeah, okay, then I'd rather not continue to answer the same ol' tired-worn-out questions over & over .

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

If these churches truly believe that the reason why women should not teach men is because women are more easily deceived, logic would suggest that women should not be trusted to teach vulnerable children and other, supposedly gullible, women. Yet many women are trusted and even encouraged to teach children and other women, but remain barred from teaching grown men in church services.

Blah-Blah-Blah.....Already explained to you (@ least 5 times) that the Greek nouns translated "man" & "woman" in I Tim. 2 denote "adult male" & "adult female" - once again, your diversionary tact is entirely moot.



11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner...I am writing you these instructions so that, 15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church.


Explain it away & dance on it all you want - it'll still be there in eternity !

[rdp]

Originally Posted by ILG

I think the thing that angers me most about this topic is the audacity of certain men to think they have nothing to learn from women. They will deny it, but if they have something to learn from women, what difference does it make if they learn it from a woman standing behind a pulpit or a woman standing in a living room? The only difference is that they believe the Bible forbids it. Then, they say all this about women being deceived and all that. So, if a woman can't speak over a pulpit then she can't speak in a living room either. My opinion. It defies logic.

And your "opinion" defies Scripture .


Ummm, it was not "they" who "say all this about women being deceived" - It was the Apostle Paul .


14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner


Lemme' guess, this doesn't mean what it specifically says either - right? Time to whip out the eraser again !

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

if it is a man he is a deacon or preacher if it is a woman she is a servant...

8 Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain. 9 They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless. 11 Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things. 12 Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well. 13 For those who serve well as deacons gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.

14 I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these things to you so that, 15 if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church.


The Greek noun translated "deacon(s)" (Διακόνους) above appears in the masculine gender - not feminine (remember your gender argument in Psalm 68.11??).


Keep trying Sis. - But (as I've been informed by others) your arguments are making you look silly at this point.

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

a. That women were “diakonos”-ministers in the early church is confirmed by an early second century AD letter by Pliny the Younger, Roman governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor (110-112 AD), which mentions two female slaves tortured for their faith in Christ, who are described in Latin as ministra, “ministers,” the common Latin translation of the Greek diakonos. (BAGD, p. 184, 2b)


What on earth does this have to do with God's Word (and, will accept all of Pliny's doctrines - or just those that you pick & choose )?


8 Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain. 9 They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless. 11 Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things. 12 Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well. 13 For those who serve well as deacons gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.

14 I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these things to you so that, 15 if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church.



b. In the first four centuries of Church history, women were included with men in the office of “diakonos”-minister. The Greek masculine title diakonos referred to both men and women until a separate order of women deaconesses is first attested in the Syrian Church ca. 380 AD. (K. Beyer, in Kittel, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, vol. II, p. 93; Encyclop. Britannica, 1992, vol. I: 448.)


But didn't you tell us that the feminine gender in Psalm 68.11 somehow (??) "proves" women preachers? Should we now equally conclude that the feminine of Psalm 68.11 "referred to both men and women" (who weren't expositing from Scripture any way) ? What has suddenly happened to your "gender" argument?



c. “Diakonos”-ministers, both men and women, served as prophets and teachers in the early church. A second century document called The Didache (“The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles”) mentions that both elders/bishops and deacons served as prophets and teachers. Didache 15:1 “Appoint for yourselves therefore bishops and deacons worthy of the Lord, . . . for unto you they also perform the service of the prophets and teachers.” (H. Bettenson, Documents of the Christian Church [Oxford University Press, 1963], p. 64).

First, there's absolutely nothing in your quote from the Didache that even remotely refers to "women-preachers" & I really have no earthly clue why you even posted it??


Second, the Didache also taught a three-fold forward immersion in baptism as well as numerous other strange dogmas. Pliny has actually done much research on this document. Would ya' like him to post his research on the late document (it was NOT “The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles” - & only reveals once again your poor & biased research).

[rdp]

In I Tim. 2:11-15 Paul says, “I am not permitting (Grk. present active indicative ouk epitrepo, a progressive tense) a woman/wife (Grk. gune) to teach or to domineer (Grk. authentein) a man/husband (Grk aner).” The Greek verb authentein means “to domineer” not simply to “exercise authority” according to the standard Greek-English lexicon of the NT, BAGD, p. 121.


First, you're entirely wrong (once again) about the Greek verb translated "authority" in I Timothy 2.12. It would have easy enough for translators to adopt the rendering "to domineer" in the passage, but as we'll see below, they don't - & for good reason.


New International Version
I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

New Living Translation
I do not let women teach men or have authority over them. Let them listen quietly.

English Standard Version
I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

New American Standard Bible
But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.

King James Bible
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
I do not allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; instead, she is to be silent.

NET Bible
But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man. She must remain quiet.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For I do not allow a woman to teach, neither to usurp over a man, but she should be quiet;

GOD'S WORD® Translation
I don't allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. Instead, she should be quiet.

Jubilee Bible 2000
For I do not allow a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over a mature man, but to be at rest.

King James 2000 Bible
But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have authority over the man, but to be in silence.

American King James Version
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to be in silence.

Darby Bible Translation
but I do not suffer a woman to teach nor to exercise authority over man, but to be in quietness;

Webster's Bible Translation
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Weymouth New Testament
I do not permit a woman to teach, nor have authority over a man, but she must remain silent.

World English Bible
But I don't permit a woman to teach, nor to exercise authority over a man, but to be in quietness.



While it's certainly true that this verb denotes "dominion" - that's Paul's whole point! Women are not exercise dominion over men with the Word of God! Sorry Sis, but you're once again grasping at straws.




When Paul says this, he does not mean that he is disallowing all women in Ephesus, where Timothy was overseeing churches, from teaching and exercising any kind of authority over men in general, because Paul certainly knew Priscilla had been one of his coworkers in Ephesus and that she and her husband taught Apollos fruitfully in Acts 18:26.


And??? Just because a husband & wife teach Bible studies to someone - how does this validate women in the set-in office of the 5-fold ministry?? So now every time a husband & wife give a home Bible study we should automatically place the woman in the official set-in position of the 5-fold ministry ?? You can't be serious (well, never mind)?




In I Tim. 2:11 Paul is no longer talking about “women” in the plural as he was earlier in 2:9-10. Now in 2:11-15 he speaks of “a woman” in the singular, referring to one woman or a restricted number of women at Ephesus.


Ahhh yes, the ol' "plural" vs. "singular" argument! First, there are good translations which retain the plural renderings in I Tim. 2.12:


12 I do not let women teach men or have authority over them. Let them listen quietly (NLT).


Second (& I've already pointed this out to you - go figure), as renown exegete Dr. Douglas Moo told me personally:


"Of course, the NLT rendering of the plurals (in I Tim. 2.12) is irrelevant to what is going on in the Greek."


There are numerous places where the singular denotes a plural. It's called "context" & this is the very reason why virtually alllllll translations adopt the indefinite article prior to the noun translated "woman" - indicating non-specivity (i.e., any woman).


You are withstanding literally hundreds of professional linguists - & you don't even have Greek I under your belt ? Ya' think there might be an agenda going on here ?



The Greek “gune” in I Tim. 2:11-15 should be translated “wife” not “woman,” because Paul refers to Adam and Eve, the first husband and wife. Therefore we should translate 2:12 “I am not permitting a wife to teach or to domineer a husband.”


Well, for about the 15th time now, no, this is entirely & demonstrably false . And, again, you're withstanding hundreds upon hundreds of professional linguists & you have not even completed 1st year Greek ?


New International Version
I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

New Living Translation
I do not let women teach men or have authority over them. Let them listen quietly.

English Standard Version
I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

New American Standard Bible
But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.

King James Bible
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
I do not allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; instead, she is to be silent.

International Standard Version
Moreover, in the area of teaching, I am not allowing a woman to instigate conflict toward a man. Instead, she is to remain calm.

NET Bible
But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man. She must remain quiet.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For I do not allow a woman to teach, neither to usurp over a man, but she should be quiet;

GOD'S WORD® Translation
I don't allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. Instead, she should be quiet.

Jubilee Bible 2000
For I do not allow a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over a mature man, but to be at rest.

King James 2000 Bible
But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have authority over the man, but to be in silence.

American King James Version
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

American Standard Version
But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have dominion over a man, but to be in quietness.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to be in silence.

Darby Bible Translation
but I do not suffer a woman to teach nor to exercise authority over man, but to be in quietness;

English Revised Version
But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have dominion over a man, but to be in quietness.

Webster's Bible Translation
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Weymouth New Testament
I do not permit a woman to teach, nor have authority over a man, but she must remain silent.

World English Bible
But I don't permit a woman to teach, nor to exercise authority over a man, but to be in quietness.


Guess they allll missed the memo about how the verse "should be translated" !


Let's try this again (which you've completely ignored for almost 60 pages now): Foremost grammarian & textual-critic Dr. Daniel Wallace stated to me in personal email:

"Gune and aner are words which mean 'adult female' and 'adult male' in their unmarked meanings. Only if there are sufficient contextual clues that husband and wife are in view do the words mean 'wife' and 'husband.'...The definite article or 'idios' (one's own) or a possessive pronoun is required to show that husband and wife are in the text. None of these things occur in 1 Tim 2. The article occurs in 1 Cor 11, but only because it is syntactically required by the construction. Both passages are clearly talking about the Christian community in worship, which would of course involve single adults and married couples. Take a look at other passages that are clearly speaking about husband and wife--e.g., Eph 5, 1 Peter 3--and you'll see that they use these signals to note that husband and wife are in view."


This is straight from the foremost translator of our day - & what do you do? What you've always done, completely ignore it & continue copying-pasting your false information - which has demonstrated as erroneous over & over & over ad nauseum infinitum. Have you no fear of God??



The very language of the prohibition in I Tim. 2:11-15 reflects the original problem:
A woman or a restricted number of women in the church of Ephesus were being contentious and argumentative against their husbands (as suggested by the command in 2:11-12 to be “in full submission” and “quietness” [hesuchia or “peaceable attitude” as in 2:2]).


The woman or women were domineering their husbands and trying to teach them in a contentious way (as suggested by Grk. authentein “domineer” in 2:12, BAGD, p. 121).


I would highly suggest the following book for a detailed & utter-complete rebuttal to this view: http://www.amazon.com/Evangelical-Fe.../dp/1581347340. Honestly, Dr. Grudem thoroughly demonstrates the falsehood of the "false teachers in Ephesus" view.


I would take the time to demonstrate how contrary to the facts this view is, but I don't feel like wasting the time do so (only to be ignored & continue on with the copy-paste jobs of the same ol' misinformation...Sigh.)

[rdp]

This kind of prohibition against a contentious, domineering wife or wives is a far cry from a blanket prohibition against godly women teaching and exercising the godly authority to which God is calling them in the Body of Christ.


As evidenced above it is indeed a "blanket prohibition" against women teaching men in the church inasmuch as Paul buttresses his argument by further explicating in v. 13 "For Adam was first formed, then Eve."


Paul appealed to the order of creation contra the imaginary "false teachers in Ephesus" to support his "blanket prohibition." Indeed, Paul had absolutely no problem delineating false teachers (e.g., as he does in Titus) - but he does not do so in I Tim. 2.11-3.15. That angle is supplied by "women-preachers" with an agenda to function out of their God-granted place. They are simply living in rebellion to God's Word.


I Tim. 2:11-15 is simply reaffirming the truth that on the corporate level, the husband is the head of the wife and of the household, which Paul teaches explicitly in Eph. 5:23.
And, according to Eph. 5:23 (and Eph. 1:10, 22; 4:15; Col. 1:18; 2:19), there is only one head of the Church—Jesus Christ!


As I've pointed out to you over & over & over & over, the difference in Eph. 5 & I Timothy 2 is the grammar & lack of personal-possessive pronouns which indicate that husbands & wives are in view. As Dr. Wallace stated: "Take a look at other passages that are clearly speaking about husband and wife--e.g., Eph 5, 1 Peter 3--and you'll see that they use these signals to note that husband and wife are in view....Only if there are sufficient contextual clues that husband and wife are in view do the words mean 'wife' and 'husband.'...The definite article or 'idios' (one's own) or a possessive pronoun is required to show that husband and wife are in the text. None of these things occur in 1 Tim 2."


Sorry Sis. - your copy-paste jobs are simply wrong.

[Sister Alvear]

Originally Posted by rdp

LOL - I would expect no less from the usual AFF crew .



11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner...I am writing you these instructions so that, 15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church


Explain it away & dance on it all y'all want - it'll still be there in eternity !

Yes, we will see in eternity....