End Time Army of Women Preachers Psalms 68:11

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Roxanne Murphy

How sad, to be able to read and write Koine Greek, but not rightly divide the Word of truth.


Though I certainly have much to learn in the arena of Koine' - It is precisely due to the research I have done into the original languages of the Bible that I fully know what these numerous (far more than a mere "one or two verses" ) passages teach.


It is YOU who is not "rightly dividing the Word of truth" !



When anybody makes the critical error that continues to be made by rdp, the gross error of holding one or two verses of scripture on any subject as being more authoritative than the rest of scripture on a subject,


LOL - & you'll need to demonstrate specifically what you speculate here: Specifically where have I "held one or two verses of Scripture on any subject as being more authoritative than the rest of Scripture"??


Indeed, that's the entire point - There IS no "Scripture" to validate "women-preachers" in the church - plenty-o against it (far more than a mere "one or two verses" - nice try though!).



that person demonstrates either an ignorance of basic hermeneutics, or a blatant disregard of hermeneutics because it interferes with a pet belief.


Can't help but chuckle at this - unbeknownst to you - you just perfectly described the very nature of your flaw in this particular area (& that's not intended as merely facetious either - but very honest) ! Mind-boggling.


rdp is doing what countless trinitarians do with Matthew 38:19: they fail to allow scripture to interpret scripture and follow true Biblical scholarship by studying EVERY text that pertains to the subject.


First, I have finally found your evidence of a "woman-preacher" in the Bible - It's right next to your mysterious Matthew 38:19 passage ! No wonder you're defending an anti-biblical doctrine - you're using an anti-biblical-Bible!


Second, hermeneutically speaking, when studying a particular biblical doctrine the student should always begin with passages specifically intended to address the topic under consideration - or "intentional passages." From there, the student should then consider passages which address this same topic in incidental fashion - or "incidental passages."


These latter verses should be brought into harmony with the passages that are specifically intended to address the dogma under consideration. Under no circumstances do the Scriptures which mention a topic in passing (i.e., "incidental" to the subject at hand) override or nullify verses intended to specifically target & address the same topic.


This is precisely where you err concerning this topic - harp on passages (that are easily explained) such as I Cor. 11 in an effort to somehow (??) override crystal-clear passages such I Timothy 2.11-3.15 (ummm, this alone would equal a total of almost 2 entire chapters - far more your imaginary "one or two verses").


Hence, you use the "incidental" passages with regard to this subject as a lens to view the "intentional" passages....which is precisely the very thing Trinitarians do with passages such as Genesis 1.26 ! Ironically, it is YOU who applies the erroneous Trinitarian paradigm to Scripture - & you need to take your own advice !


Yes, mr. rdp, I did put you in the same class as those who dogmatically argue the doctrine of the trinity.


LOL - I'm just mortified...mortified I say !


And, likewise, I put you in the same class as those who dogmatically fight the clear force of Acts 2.38 in an attempt to render God's Word of no effect, which is the identical thing you do with the numerous passages clearly teaching against "women-preachers" in the NT church - so salute your Trinitarian brethren !


Do I have any hope that rdp will be able to lose his blinders and honestly see all that scripture says about the subject of women in ministry?


Ummm, I've "honestly" & carefully researched every-single passage in the Bible that mentions women being used in any capacity - guess what? There's absolutely no such thing as "women-preachers" in the Bible - It has to be crammed & forced into the text - shame on you & those who allow it! You're not being honest with the Bible....It is YOU who needs to shed the "blinders" - mine have never been on !



No. I rather suspect (because I used to be a part of his type of sect) that he comes out here to be able to say, "Bless God, all these poor deceived souls out there on that Internet forum, they've been sent a strong delusion! You better thank God He loves you enough to send you a preacher who will preach it to you straight so you don't end up lost and on your way to a devil's hell like those poor reprobates! If they don't acknowledge the truth I am declaring to them, then they can't be saved! Bless God!"

Why, I perceive thou art a "prophetess" - That's exactly how I feel !

[shag]

What is "ummm" in the Greek?

[berkeley]

Originally Posted by rdp

You are mistaking a narrative ... ...for didactic instruction.

Y'all do the same for initial evidence doctrine.

[Sasha]

I have to wonder why RDP would send money to a woman he accuses of being in witchcraft....

[KeptByTheWord]

Silence.

This is where this argument hinges, and RDP has refused to look at this aspect of this discussion. I would like to point out the other scriptural references where the same Greek words for silence sigaó and hésuchia were used.

G4601 (sigaó:)

G4601 (sigaó:) used 3 times in NT: sigaó: to keep silent, to keep secret, hold peace, be silent From sige; to keep silent (transitively or intransitively) -- keep close (secret, silence), hold peace.

Acts 15:12 All the people kept silent, (4601 sigaó:) and they were listening to Barnabas and Paul as they were relating what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles.

1 Cor. 14:27-28 If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret; 28 but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent (4601 sigaó:) in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God. 29Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment

1 Cor. 14:34 The women are to keep silent (4601 sigaó:) in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says.

G 2271 hésuchia:

hésuchia: stillness - used 3 times in NT: Original Word: ἡσυχία, ας, ἡ Cognate: 2271 hēsyxía (from hēsyxos, "quiet, stillness") – quietness, implying calm; for the believer, 2271 (hēsyxía) is used of their God-produced calm which includes an inner tranquility that supports appropriate action. This term "does not mean speechlessness, which is more directly indicated by 4602 (sigḗ) (J. Thayer). See 2272 (hēsyxios).

STRONGS NT 2271: ἡσυχία ἡσυχίας, ἡ (from the adjective ἡσύχιος, which see; the feminine expresses the general notion (Winers Grammar, 95 (90)), cf. αἰτία, ἀρετή, ἔχθρα, etc.) (from Homerdown);
1. quietness: descriptive of the life of one who stays at home doing his own work, and does not officiously meddle with the affairs of others, 2 Thessalonians 3:12.
2. silence: Acts 22:2; 1 Timothy 2:11f

Below are the 3 places this word hésuchia is found:

Acts 22:2 "Brethren and fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you." 2And when they heard that he was addressing them in the Hebrew dialect, they kept the more silent (G2271 hésuchia);

1 Tim. 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence (G2271 hésuchia) with all subjection.

I Tim 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. (G2271 hésuchia)

There is a reason I am pressing in on this discussion of the word silence. I believe it is the hinge of this discussion concerning the verses that command a woman to be in silence.

The words hésuchia and sigaó: were used elsewhere in the NT to urge the crowd to be still and listen. (Acts 15:12 sigaó, Acts 22:2 hésuchia). In each of those settings, there was a commotion going on, and order had to be restored. It is for this reason, that I believe then that in each of the two scenarios where a woman is directed by Paul to be “silent”, was because he was addressing a specific situation, where things had gotten out of order, and he was directing the woman to be silent, and not disorderly.

There are other places in his writings where Paul is speaking about church order concerning women, (as in 1 Cor. 11 where there were woman praying or prophesying in the church). So, we know that he allowed for woman to play an active role in the church as the gifts of the spirit were employed. However, in whatever situations he was addressing in these 2 scenarios (1 Cor. 14:34 sigaó, I Tim. 2:11-12 hésuchia), there was a time for women to be silent, and not interrupt, or disrupt the church order. It didn't mean they could never, ever speak/pray/prophesy/preach in a church setting, it just meant there was a time for them to be still, and hold their peace.

That is why these 2 settings of scriptures should not be used to say a woman cannot preach, pray, sing, testify, prophesy/preach or otherwise be of help in the five-fold ministry and gifts to edify the church. This would perfectly explain these 2 references, and allow women to not feel as though they needed to be “quiet as church mice” in a church setting, but instead, being careful to allow order to be maintained in the church setting.

[rdp]

LOL - The "silence" vs. "Speak" (equally translated "preach" !) charade has been explained until anyone with any common sense can understand the distinct contexts. Honestly, at this point it's just plain -out silly - despite how many times you "press-in" the issue .



Worse, you made the SAME mistake AGAIN! I have shown over & over that in chapter 12 Paul (read carefully here) SWITCHES topics TO "the gifts of the Spirit" - which means he's NOT discussing the same subject in Chapter 11. What do you do when this pointed out? Plod along with your fingers stuck in your ears like it doesn't exist & continue to act like you've stumbled upon some great "revelation" (that only you seem infatuated with) .



Yes, the passages are CLEARLY forbidding women to "preach-teach" men in a church-setting & you, nor anyone else, has (nor will ever) offer substantive exegesis, context, or grammar to either overthrow the multitude of verses (far more than "one or two") which CLEARLY forbid the same (I've been at this for a few years )!



What will you continue to do? What "women-preachers" ALWAYS do - ignore or play-down the CLEAR force of I Tim. 2.11-3.15; I Cor. 14.34; Titus; Eph; James; etc. (still have many passages I could bring into the discussion) - all the while y'all keep harping about "prophecy" (which is NOT a sermon from the Scriptures anyway - & hence moot). It is an exceedingly weak attempt to cram in your doctrine & lifestyle preference into the biblical text - A text which clearly forbids the same!



Apparently y'all overlooked the definition of "teach" in I Tim. 2:12 - so here, let's try if again : "In the NT, this word nearly always means 'to expound from the Scriptures (the written Word of God)." "Ohhhhh, but this is only talking about a wife not teaching her husband in the home-order!" - Ummmm, watch his easy this is: No it's not ! What a silly argument - not to mention how this angle entirely defies context, the actual grammar of the text, syntax, exegesis, & hundreds upon hundreds of professional linguists - shame on y'all for handling the Word of God like that!



But, hey, this IS AFF - I fully got what I fully expected ! Waste of time - you're like concrete - all mixed up & thoroughly set! Be back later !

[rdp]

Originally Posted by berkeley

Y'all do the same for initial evidence doctrine.

No we don't - John 3.8 is Jesus teaching doctrine on the topic - which is then Fulfilled in Acts - nice try though !

[Sister Alvear]

Sad the spirit some people seem to live in...The go ye command was to go preach....so that is what an army of ladies are doing along with a greater army of men over here...Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel...
We live in the spirit of the days of the Acts of the apostles and go everywhere preaching the word of the Lord...
We understand Paul's writings and the questions that were sent to him that he answered...Our ladies are not telling their husbands what to do but work beside them just as many holy women of old...
In fact we are headed out to preach at a church about 4 hours drive from here...
I learned a long time ago that gifts and callings make room for themselves...
So glad for over 50 students that graduated from our northeast Bible school last week...
Dear ones...keep on working ....life's day will soon be over...eternity is coming on winged feet...Help everyone you can...Be kind...be careful what you say. People that say hard cutting things usually reap the same....do not become bitter...if you cannot discuss in the right spirit any subject then walk away...do not let hatred for a people, an organization ruin you...
Blessings to all on this extremely hot day here in Brazil.

[Sister Alvear]

No where the Bible tells me not to preach if I am called...even the so called proof verses does not say do not preach...Jesus said, Go...Mark 16:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.


Matthew 28:19-20
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

The Great Commission applies to all Christians today. We read in Romans 10:13-14, “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in Him of Whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?”

[Sister Alvear]

Originally Posted by rdp

Oh brother - Here comes the ol' copy-paste jobs again .


You are mistaking a narrative in Acts 4.34-35; 5.1 for didactic instruction. To illustrate, Luke (also in Acts) records that Judas's hung himself - should we now follow suit - using your identical hermeneutic approach ?


And, parables, by their very nature are intended to convey a lesson via symbolism (which is why it's prefaced with the preposition "para" generally meaning "alongside" or "in the opinion of").


The difference is that the epistles are clear instructions to the churches with minimal symbolism - kinda' like:


11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve....I am writing these things to you so that, 15 if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church.



John 3:3 uses the generic noun "anthropos" - meaning "human being," whereas I Timothy 2 uses the specific noun "aner" specifically meaning "male!"


Nice try Sis....Next?

so you are comparing Acts 4 and Judas hanging himself in the same catagory...YOU really need help...