The Question No One Can Answer

[LadyRev]

Originally Posted by ILG

Many scientific theories were philosophy before it they were proven. But before they were proven it was philosophy and not science.



With your reasoning, anything is provable just because you believe it. That's downright scary.



These are ideas that can make you crazy if you get into some wacky belief. How do you determine if someone's beliefs are off the deep end if you equate belief with proof?



The rest is up to the recipient of your message to what? Agree or disagree with your "justified true belief"? I believe there is an afterlife but I don't KNOW it, just as science has believed in certain philosophies before they were provable. But they were philosophies at that time and NOT science. There is a difference between BELIEF and PROOF.




Scary. Lots of people can justify their beliefs. That doesn't make it knowledge. It is still a belief.

The bulleted points are not my philosophies. But they serve to make my point which I believe you are missing.

God gave us a free will to choose. If we choose to, we can believe the moon is made of cheese. We don't have to prove it for it to be "justified" and become something we "know". If we believe it strongly enough, we will find justification and we will accept it as knowledge that the moon is made of cheese.

This happens all the time. Thats why we have doomsday groups that stockpile food. They believe and KNOW that D-Day is coming on a certain date and they prepare for it. They can't PROVE it but for them its knowledge and they are acting on that knowledge.

I CAN INDEED answer the question and subject of this thread. I can answer for MYSELF, based on what I know and believe and accept as truth. I can't answer for anyone else, just for myself. I can share my belief, my opinion, my thoughts. But ultimately, everyone must choose for themselves. Thats been my point all along.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by LadyRev

The bulleted points are not my philosophies. But they serve to make my point which I believe you are missing.

God gave us a free will to choose. If we choose to, we can believe the moon is made of cheese. We don't have to prove it for it to be "justified" and become something we "know". If we believe it strongly enough, we will find justification and we will accept it as knowledge that the moon is made of cheese.

This happens all the time. Thats why we have doomsday groups that stockpile food. They believe and KNOW that D-Day is coming on a certain date and they prepare for it. They can't PROVE it but for them its knowledge and they are acting on that knowledge.

I CAN INDEED answer the question and subject of this thread. I can answer for MYSELF, based on what I know and believe and accept as truth. I can't answer for anyone else, just for myself. I can share my belief, my opinion, my thoughts. But ultimately, everyone must choose for themselves. Thats been my point all along.

Which means you believe in a lie. A more reasonable response would be, "We don't know what the moon is made of." Which simply means you don't have "The Answer."

The Afterlife is no different, and in fact is more of an assumption, as the moon can be seen by the human eye from Earth, from every Generation. It's interesting that the subject of the Universe has come up, as my wife and I were talking about that last night.

Do you, or anyone on here, believe that G-d is more immense and wise than the entire Universe? I do believe G-d is, as the creator is always greater than the creation.

And, what happens when we explore and uncover the mysteries of the Universe? Myths are revealed, truth becomes relevant, and 1 open door leads to a million more to open.

The idea that man can "Know" what happens when we die, but can't even penetrate a minute fraction of space and the beyond, is really quite hilarious! I think G-d might be giving us all the signals we need to understand, we know very little about anything.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by LadyRev

The bulleted points are not my philosophies. But they serve to make my point which I believe you are missing.

God gave us a free will to choose. If we choose to, we can believe the moon is made of cheese. We don't have to prove it for it to be "justified" and become something we "know". If we believe it strongly enough, we will find justification and we will accept it as knowledge that the moon is made of cheese.

This happens all the time. Thats why we have doomsday groups that stockpile food. They believe and KNOW that D-Day is coming on a certain date and they prepare for it. They can't PROVE it but for them its knowledge and they are acting on that knowledge.

I CAN INDEED answer the question and subject of this thread. I can answer for MYSELF, based on what I know and believe and accept as truth. I can't answer for anyone else, just for myself. I can share my belief, my opinion, my thoughts. But ultimately, everyone must choose for themselves. Thats been my point all along.

Okay, you have absolutely proven my point. You believe that anything you believe is factual to you. In other words, you seem to be saying that your belief is your reality. I think that is a lie. You can't believe something into being or people would believe their loved ones healthy and back to life all the time. But reality is harsh and hard and doesn't work that way.

What you are espousing is truly scary. You are apparently saying that fact has no basis, reality has no basis. Whatever you believe is FACT. I think that is a dangerous belief that has no basis in reality. Sad.

[LadyRev]

Originally Posted by ILG

Okay, you have absolutely proven my point. You believe that anything you believe is factual to you. In other words, you seem to be saying that your belief is your reality. I think that is a lie. You can't believe something into being or people would believe their loved ones healthy and back to life all the time. But reality is harsh and hard and doesn't work that way.

What you are espousing is truly scary. You are apparently saying that fact has no basis, reality has no basis. Whatever you believe is FACT. I think that is a dangerous belief that has no basis in reality. Sad.

You are still misunderstanding me.

I'm not talking about "believing something into being". For me, there is no question. There is a one true God and there is an afterlife. Period. People can try to tell me otherwise, they can say "you don't know that", but it won't change anything unless I choose to change my mind.

I have made my choice about the afterlife, for example, based on what I personally believe to be fact. Facts can come from books, from experiments, from personal experiences such as the "harsh reality" that you mentioned, from the experiences of others, or simply by faith, faith in God, faith in the experiences of others.

How do you know gravity is a fact? You can't see it. Isn't it because you experience it and others have experienced it and some scientists have documented the experiences and call it a law? What is the basis for your personal belief in gravity? Experiences? Books? If someone tells you that gravity is not real will that change your mind and cause the law of gravity to no longer be a "fact" for you?

You seem to be saying that experiences do not establish a BASIS for belief, a basis for something KNOWN to be true, but yet they do. If you say they don't, you contradict yourself.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by LadyRev

You seem to be saying that experiences do not establish a BASIS for belief, a basis for something KNOWN to be true, but yet they do. If you say they don't, you contradict yourself.

No, experiences DO establish a basis for belief. That is why gravity was a philosophy before it was tested. Then it was tested. The theory of gravity has the same test results over and over. So it is a testable and repeatable hypothesis. This is not true with the belief in heaven. There is no testable hypothesis in the same way, where a group can test the results over and over. That is why it is a belief.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by LadyRev

You are still misunderstanding me.

I'm not talking about "believing something into being". For me, there is no question. There is a one true God and there is an afterlife. Period. People can try to tell me otherwise, they can say "you don't know that", but it won't change anything unless I choose to change my mind.

I have made my choice about the afterlife, for example, based on what I personally believe to be fact. Facts can come from books, from experiments, from personal experiences such as the "harsh reality" that you mentioned, from the experiences of others, or simply by faith, faith in God, faith in the experiences of others.

How do you know gravity is a fact? You can't see it. Isn't it because you experience it and others have experienced it and some scientists have documented the experiences and call it a law? What is the basis for your personal belief in gravity? Experiences? Books? If someone tells you that gravity is not real will that change your mind and cause the law of gravity to no longer be a "fact" for you?

You seem to be saying that experiences do not establish a BASIS for belief, a basis for something KNOWN to be true, but yet they do. If you say they don't, you contradict yourself.

Gravity is not a viable comparison. Gravity can be measured and proven. And, as you even stated, Gravity has been called, "Law", and applies the same to all who live on Earth.

On the other hand, the Afterlife cannot be measured or proven. This allows the believer to presume, make up, or embellish the Afterlife to fit their own idea or Religion, because there is no Law to confine the results.

Then you have Preachers/People who tell others what will happen to them when they die, even though there is no Law to establish the reality of who really goes where. In other words, it becomes a "Crapshoot", with no definitive answer, and with no definitive truth.

In the end, it's all about opinions, not the actual experience.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Gravity is not a viable comparison. Gravity can be measured and proven. And, as you even stated, Gravity has been called, "Law", and applies the same to all who live on Earth.

On the other hand, the Afterlife cannot be measured or proven. This allows the believer to presume, make up, or embellish the Afterlife to fit their own idea or Religion, because there is no Law to confine the results.

Then you have Preachers/People who tell others what will happen to them when they die, even though there is no Law to establish the reality of who really goes where. In other words, it becomes a "Crapshoot", with no definitive answer, and with no definitive truth.

In the end, it's all about opinions, not the actual experience.

NSF,

There is a blue elephant in your living room.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by ILG

NSF,

There is a blue elephant in your living room.

My very first reaction; I saw this blue elephant in my mind, clear as day, but it was my OWN blue elephant (size/type/where in my living room)!

To me, this is what happens with the Afterlife; we can go there, no problem in our minds, but it is our OWN Afterlife, not another persons or G-d's.

The imagination is truly powerful, but it must be harnessed with the facts, not another persons idea of what something is via their upbringing and Religious culture.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

My very first reaction; I saw this blue elephant in my mind, clear as day, but it was my OWN blue elephant (size/type/where in my living room)!

To me, this is what happens with the Afterlife; we can go there, no problem in our minds, but it is our OWN Afterlife, not another persons or G-d's.

The imagination is truly powerful, but it must be harnessed with the facts, not another persons idea of what something is via their upbringing and Religious culture.

You must be quiet at 5:00 PM to 3 AM for this is when the elephant sleeps.

[LadyRev]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Gravity is not a viable comparison. Gravity can be measured and proven. And, as you even stated, Gravity has been called, "Law", and applies the same to all who live on Earth.

On the other hand, the Afterlife cannot be measured or proven. This allows the believer to presume, make up, or embellish the Afterlife to fit their own idea or Religion, because there is no Law to confine the results.

Then you have Preachers/People who tell others what will happen to them when they die, even though there is no Law to establish the reality of who really goes where. In other words, it becomes a "Crapshoot", with no definitive answer, and with no definitive truth.

In the end, it's all about opinions, not the actual experience.

Who said gravity was a "law"? Man?

Have you personally measured and proven gravity or have you just taken some scientists word for it?

How can you say that gravity is a fact when you yourself have not measured or proven it? Is it because you have EXPERIENCED it for yourself? You have accepted it as fact?

You seem to readily accept this "law of gravity" as fact but yet if you do a little research, you will find scientists are still researching this so called law and there are some scientists that state it is not a "law" but rather remains only a theory because it has NOT been proven.

Opinions? Most certainly. Based on experiences, observations, theories, ideas, feelings, but not necessarily based on any cold, hard, proven, cut in stone evidence.

We each much choose what to believe, what to accept as fact and what to accept as the basis for our choices.