NT Ministry an Extension of the OT Priesthood?

[Pneuman]

Originally Posted by n david

I have a question for you: Why did Paul write what he did about the 5-fold ministry?

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;"

We know the role of Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists and Teachers, but what did Paul have in mind for the role and responsibility of Pastors?

I know some don't like Strong's, but here's it's word for Pastor:

poimén: a shepherd
Original Word: ποιμήν, ένος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: poimén
Phonetic Spelling: (poy-mane')
Short Definition: a shepherd
Definition: a shepherd; hence met: of the feeder, protector, and ruler of a flock of men.

HELPS Word-studies
4166 poimḗn – properly, a shepherd ("pastor" in Latin); (figuratively) someone who the Lord raises up to care for the total well-being of His flock (the people of the Lord).

Source Link


I agree. There are many Pastors I've met, both in Pentecostal and other denominations, who feel they are indeed "lords" over their congregation.


Again, we would need to examine what Paul meant by "Pastors" and the role and responsibility. I've also heard that Pastors are "watchmen" who will have to "give account" for the souls of their congregations.

I do believe the 5-fold ministry included a Pastor or Shepherd for a reason. While a Pastor is not to lord over people, I believe his role can partly be found in 2 Timothy 4:2: "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine."

Good question N David! I was hoping to get a dialog more about the OT priesthood vs. the NT ministry, but how to resolve your question. How can a Pastor be both a "ruler" and yet not exercise "control?" Seems like a very careful line to walk. I am not sure there is a definitive answer, but like in many places in God's word He creates balance in us by giving us scriptures that help to create that balance.

But does this mean it is OK to preach against anything that I personally see as wrong if I am leading the flock? Should I preach my congregation into hell for going to a bowling alley? Should I create barriers for the people I lead that set the fence far enough back so that I know they won't accidentally fall in, or is it each persons responsibility to have their own walk with God?

Hebrews 13:17 is a tricky scripture, and again has been used to prove that the Pastor should "rule" over his congregation because they are going to give an account of our lives. When the passage as "as one" it indicates that the Pastor will not give an account, but that we should lives as though he were going to do so. Why? Because it is profitable for us (not for him). Also, I don't see any indication from the NT that these people who were in the "rule," whoever they were, had the ability or the inclination to give extra biblical interpretations of the scripture and hold their congregation accountable to measures that are not biblical. Once again, the Bible is purposely vague.

How about another couple scriptures to temper our study into this question:

"Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you (Deut 4:2)."

"Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar (Prov. 30:6)."

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation (II Pet. 1:21)."

When does "adding" become adding? We look at Trinitarians and say they are adding to the scripture because the Bible does not say God is a Trinity (and rightly so). Yet they look at us and say we don the same thing by teaching "Holiness Standards," also not found in the scripture, and yet we go to great lengths to defend something that is clearly not in the Bible. I have yet to find anybody, preacher, theologian or "laity," that can show me one scripture that links standards of dress to holiness. In my 20+ times of reading through the Bible, and other countless hours of study, I can't seem to locate it either. If our teachings were only what we could get from the scripture, without interpretation, would we still espouse these doctrines? I say not!

Anyway, good thoughts N David. Do you think I am out of bounds here?

[Godsdrummer]

Pneuman

No I don't think you are off the wall, I do think you may even fall short what scripture teaches concerning this subject.
Food or thought, to those of you that want to put a pastor in a position not found in scripture.
Ephesians 4 does not speak of the five fold ministry as offices. It speaks of them as gifts given to the church, and should all be at work in the local assembly.
You left out a couple of passages, while Matt. 20:25-28 is a good one more can be said from that passage. But lets look at another one. Matt 23, Christ
goes so far as to say, don't let anyone give you a title.
Mat 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
Note a Rabbi is a teacher, Christ is our master, and we are all brethren, Nether be called father, for one is our father, which is in heaven, neither be called master, for one is our master, even Christ.
Further there is not one place in NT that a pastor was placed over the local assembly. There were elders, and bishops, plural being the significant term here. Not one. These were not offices as our traditions would have us believe.
And finally that being said, Hebrews 13:17, the word for Obey in the Greed here means by persuasion. This is a completely different word than the Greed word translated obey in Ephesians where Paul says "children obey you parents".
That being said, the writer of Hebrews also said, "those" again plural, that have rule. Now if the writer was meaning what many twist this passage to mean, why did he not say "obey them that spoke the word to you" earlier in the same chapter? Instead he said "remember them".

[Godsdrummer]

This link if I can make it work can be down loaded and printed off, goes into great detail on this subject. https://www.facebook.com/groups/1812...1067694905052/
This link will open my facebook page then you can click the link which will take you to the study.
I know it seems like a pain but it is well worth the read for those that want more understanding of this subject.

[Pneuman]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

This link if I can make it work can be down loaded and printed off, goes into great detail on this subject. https://www.facebook.com/groups/1812...1067694905052/
This link will open my facebook page then you can click the link which will take you to the study.
I know it seems like a pain but it is well worth the read for those that want more understanding of this subject.

Thanks for your thoughts. I downloaded and will chew on it over the next couple of weeks.