Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Aquila

The man, Jesus Christ, was indeed a man. A human being. Yet He was also God. How? Oneness. He was one with the Father...

John 10:30
30 I and my Father are one. (KJV)

John 10:38
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (KJV)

John 12:45
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. (KJV)

John 14:7-10
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (KJV)

If you walked the earth with Jesus, you'd get to know Him as a man. He'd teach. He'd laugh. He'd eat. He'd use the restroom. He'd sleep. He'd rest. He'd pray. He'd fast. He'd cry. He'd sweat. He'd bleed. However... at times you'd feel something otherworldly emanating from Him. Something emanating from the core of His being. Something powerful. Something that has authority over all creation, speaking to the winds... bringing them into obedience. Something indescribable. You'd sense GOD Himself at the core of Christ's own person. You'd realize that this man is... also God.

God did not reside in Christ as a vehicle. God resided in and permeated Christ's very being. A Oneness so complete, so majestic, and so divine that in Christ it can be said that God became a man... and that said man was also God.

No other religion elevates Christ to such an infinite height of majesty and honor. No other religion expresses Christ's true person to such an infinite degree. Most religions merely make Christ a prophet. No... Christ was not just a prophet. Christ was the human tabernacle of God Himself. To deny this imperils the soul... and reduces Christ to being either a lunatic or a liar.

All authority and power has been delivered to Christ Jesus. He will judge Krishna. He will judge Buddha. He will judge Mohammed. He will judge Nanak. He will judge the followers of every false prophet and madman. He will judge all men in accordance to the Father's will as it relates to the Gospel. Through Him, the Father will judge. Because they are one.

The famous passage: John 10:30.

What does ONE (Greek word HEN) mean?

John 11

52 and not for the nation only, but that also the children of God, who have been scattered abroad, he may gather together into one. If this word word (HEN - ONE) means what you say it means then that means that somehow the people of God are all the same individual. It does not.

John 17: (Interestingly enough, Jesus who you say is proven to be God in the book of John, is praying to God in John 17 but not a one of you have ever explained this or brought this up)

11 and no more am I in the world, and these are in the world, and I come unto Thee. Holy Father, keep them in Thy name, whom Thou hast given to me, that they may be one as we

Same word - HEN - ONE - does NOT mean that each disciple is the same as the other disciple. It is used to show sameness in purpose/beliefs/feelings/goals (which I believe we all agree that Jesus was same in purpose with God)

Again in John 17 - here Jesus himself explains what (HEN - ONE) means which is much closer to what I believe it means than what you believe it means:

21 that they all may be one, as Thou Father [art] in me, and I in Thee; that they also in us may be one, that the world may believe that Thou didst send me. ONE in US? The disciples were gods also? By your logic they are (speaking of peril yah? but by mine they are not)

22 `And I, the glory that thou hast given to me, have given to them, that they may be one as we are one;

23 I in them, and Thou in me, that they may be perfected into one, and that the world may know that Thou didst send me, and didst love them as Thou didst love me.

Summary:

"I and my father are one" does not mean that they are the same entity. It means that they are two different distinct entities with completely common goals and purposes - this does not make Jesus God any more than becoming ONE makes the disciples Peter the same as the Disciple John.

Another example: 1 Cor 6:16

16 have ye not known that he who is joined to the harlot is one body? `for they shall be -- saith He -- the two for one flesh.'

17 And he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit;

Being joined as ONE to your wife which is the reference here does not make you a wife any more than being joined as ONE to God makes you a god.

With that said I believe I saw you post He will judge all men

Not what your book says. Book says many will judge. I will let you find the passages because I think you (not just you, all of you) need to study it more.

Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years

Or do you not know that the Lord's people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

The famous passage: John 10:30.

What does ONE (Greek word HEN) mean?

John 11

52 and not for the nation only, but that also the children of God, who have been scattered abroad, he may gather together into one. If this word word (HEN - ONE) means what you say it means then that means that somehow the people of God are all the same individual. It does not.

John 17: (Interestingly enough, Jesus who you say is proven to be God in the book of John, is praying to God in John 17 but not a one of you have ever explained this or brought this up)

11 and no more am I in the world, and these are in the world, and I come unto Thee. Holy Father, keep them in Thy name, whom Thou hast given to me, that they may be one as we

Same word - HEN - ONE - does NOT mean that each disciple is the same as the other disciple. It is used to show sameness in purpose/beliefs/feelings/goals (which I believe we all agree that Jesus was same in purpose with God)

Again in John 17 - here Jesus himself explains what (HEN - ONE) means which is much closer to what I believe it means than what you believe it means:

21 that they all may be one, as Thou Father [art] in me, and I in Thee; that they also in us may be one, that the world may believe that Thou didst send me. ONE in US? The disciples were gods also? By your logic they are (speaking of peril yah? but by mine they are not)

22 `And I, the glory that thou hast given to me, have given to them, that they may be one as we are one;

23 I in them, and Thou in me, that they may be perfected into one, and that the world may know that Thou didst send me, and didst love them as Thou didst love me.

Summary:

"I and my father are one" does not mean that they are the same entity. It means that they are two different distinct entities with completely common goals and purposes - this does not make Jesus God any more than becoming ONE makes the disciples Peter the same as the Disciple John.

Another example: 1 Cor 6:16

16 have ye not known that he who is joined to the harlot is one body? `for they shall be -- saith He -- the two for one flesh.'

17 And he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit;

Being joined as ONE to your wife which is the reference here does not make you a wife any more than being joined as ONE to God makes you a god.

With that said I believe I saw you post He will judge all men

Not what your book says. Book says many will judge. I will let you find the passages because I think you (not just you, all of you) need to study it more.

Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years

Or do you not know that the Lord's people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?

You need to go back and read what I wrote slowly. I essentially said that Jesus is a man who is one with God. He is both, man... and God. The human tabernacle of God Almighty. Even Muhammed will testify to Jesus being the human tabernacle of God at the judgment.

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Aquila

You need to go back and read what I wrote slowly. I essentially said that Jesus is a man who is one with God. He is both, man... and God. The human tabernacle of God Almighty. Even Muhammed will testify to Jesus being the human tabernacle of God at the judgment.

I read it. I also noted 3 passages where Jesus was with God at the same point in time and Jesus was in one place and God was in another place.

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

I read it. I also noted 3 passages where Jesus was with God at the same point in time and Jesus was in one place and God was in another place.

That is pure nonsense, God is omnipresent, he is everywhere at the same time. he can not be confined to a particular place.

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

That is pure nonsense, God is omnipresent, he is everywhere at the same time. he can not be confined to a particular place.

In this particular passage He was sitting on His throne. Jesus was not.

What is nonsense is your post. Kindly note that it is pretty numb to draw a conclusion that because a particular passage says God was sitting on His throne handing a scroll to Jesus (who was not on said throne but standing in the middle of those around it) it means "God is confined to His throne" <shakes head>

From Rev 5:

6 And I saw [g]between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. 7 And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.

Original point is this: There is God and God's throne and God is sitting there and then there is Jesus NOT on God's throne at the exact same point in time standing there. Is that clear enough? There is no silly logic that can explain why God has to "split himself in two" to hand a scroll to another part of himself but it sure is entertaining to hear you folks explain these very clear depictions of God's place and Jesus' place away.

There were two other examples of this that were previously shared. Please do not "confine" God based on those examples either. <re-shakes head> WOW

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

In this particular passage He was sitting on His throne. Jesus was not.

What is nonsense is your post. Kindly note that it is pretty numb to draw a conclusion that because a particular passage says God was sitting on His throne handing a scroll to Jesus (who was not on said throne but standing in the middle of those around it) it means "God is confined to His throne" <shakes head>

From Rev 5:

6 And I saw [g]between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. 7 And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.

Original point is this: There is God and God's throne and God is sitting there and then there is Jesus NOT on God's throne at the exact same point in time standing there. Is that clear enough? There is no silly logic that can explain why God has to "split himself in two" to hand a scroll to another part of himself but it sure is entertaining to hear you folks explain these very clear depictions of God's place and Jesus' place away.

There were two other examples of this that were previously shared. Please do not "confine" God based on those examples either. <re-shakes head> WOW

...Don't you understand that God can manifest himself as Jesus and the Father at the same time. The one true God is a spirit. We won't see him. We can't. We can only see what he manifests himself as. So yes, God was on the throne, yes God took the scroll out of Gods hand.

I don't get why the oneness believers are having trouble explaining that portion of their doctrine to you. It's kinda sad because their doctrine was built to explain such instances.

It's not that I agree with them, but you simply saying look here's Jesus and here's God beside him and they are interacting... that doesn't disprove their doctrine.

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by jfrog

...Don't you understand that God can manifest himself as Jesus and the Father at the same time. The one true God is a spirit. We won't see him. We can't. We can only see what he manifests himself as. So yes, God was on the throne, yes God took the scroll out of Gods hand.

I don't get why the oneness believers are having trouble explaining that portion of their doctrine to you. It's kinda sad because their doctrine was built to explain such instances.

It's not that I agree with them, but you simply saying look here's Jesus and here's God beside him and they are interacting... that doesn't disprove their doctrine.

I said a lot more than that. I said that Jesus said he would be there in the Gospels. He said he would be at the right hand of God. He said pray to God and he did pray to God. He said nothing was given to him except by God, he did not say that He gave himself his own power and words.

This vision in Revelation only validated what Jesus already said. Nowhere did Jesus ever say "I am God".

Take the writings literally = No further explaining, or jumping from place to place, or added logic, or interpretative 'help' needed or required. "Build" a "doctrine" requires all of these things yes?

This is why those of whom you speak are having trouble explaining specific, stand-alone passages because specific, stand-alone passages do not support a doctrine "built" of disjointed, unrelated, out-of-context verses taken randomly from here and there. Furthermore to hold up the passages on which the doctrine is "built" have to be carefully taken from carefully selected "versions" of the translations or it all falls apart. <re-shakes head>

Surah 5:13-15 But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others). And with those who say, We are Christians, We made a covenant, but they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of, therefore We excited among them enmity and hatred to the day of resurrection; and Allah will inform them of what they did. O followers of the Book! indeed Our Messenger has come to you making clear to you much of what you concealed of the Book and passing over much; indeed, there has come to you light and a clear Book from Allah.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

The famous passage: John 10:30.

What does ONE (Greek word HEN) mean?

John 11

52 and not for the nation only, but that also the children of God, who have been scattered abroad, he may gather together into one. If this word word (HEN - ONE) means what you say it means then that means that somehow the people of God are all the same individual. It does not.

John 17: (Interestingly enough, Jesus who you say is proven to be God in the book of John, is praying to God in John 17 but not a one of you have ever explained this or brought this up)

11 and no more am I in the world, and these are in the world, and I come unto Thee. Holy Father, keep them in Thy name, whom Thou hast given to me, that they may be one as we

Same word - HEN - ONE - does NOT mean that each disciple is the same as the other disciple. It is used to show sameness in purpose/beliefs/feelings/goals (which I believe we all agree that Jesus was same in purpose with God)

Again in John 17 - here Jesus himself explains what (HEN - ONE) means which is much closer to what I believe it means than what you believe it means:

21 that they all may be one, as Thou Father [art] in me, and I in Thee; that they also in us may be one, that the world may believe that Thou didst send me. ONE in US? The disciples were gods also? By your logic they are (speaking of peril yah? but by mine they are not)

22 `And I, the glory that thou hast given to me, have given to them, that they may be one as we are one;

23 I in them, and Thou in me, that they may be perfected into one, and that the world may know that Thou didst send me, and didst love them as Thou didst love me.

Summary:

"I and my father are one" does not mean that they are the same entity. It means that they are two different distinct entities with completely common goals and purposes - this does not make Jesus God any more than becoming ONE makes the disciples Peter the same as the Disciple John.

Another example: 1 Cor 6:16

16 have ye not known that he who is joined to the harlot is one body? `for they shall be -- saith He -- the two for one flesh.'

17 And he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit;

Being joined as ONE to your wife which is the reference here does not make you a wife any more than being joined as ONE to God makes you a god.

With that said I believe I saw you post He will judge all men

Not what your book says. Book says many will judge. I will let you find the passages because I think you (not just you, all of you) need to study it more.

Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years

Or do you not know that the Lord's people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?

One word...

Theosis.

Christ being the first fruit, the first born, of all creation. God will one day be the "all in all".

[Pressing-On]

Thought this was interesting.

Walid Shoebat and David Hunt tell how ‘Allah’ became the god of Islam

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cIGsrif1ic