Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Are you referring to this story from John 20?

15 Jesus saith to her, `Woman, why dost thou weep? whom dost thou seek;' she, supposing that he is the gardener, saith to him, `Sir, if thou didst carry him away, tell me where thou didst lay him, and I will take him away;'

16 Jesus saith to her, `Mary!' having turned, she saith to him, `Rabbouni;' that is to say, `Teacher.'

17 Jesus saith to her, `Be not touching me, for I have not yet ascended unto my Father; and be going on to my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and to your God.'

Are you using this story to prove Jesus is God? I'll put that one in the long, growing list of references that prove my point.

Did you notice in that same chapter, specifically verse 28, that Thomas identifies Jesus Christ as "My Lord and/even My God"?

You do realize that when Jesus addresses Himself in this way, He is identifying who He is? He instructs Mary to go and "tell the brethren" that he is ascending to His Father, your Father, His God and your God."

What would the brethren understand here?...That the only words they have before them are:

"I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another..." Isaiah 42:8

"Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour." Isaiah 43:10-11

"I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." Isaiah 44:6

"I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;" Isaiah 4:24

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6

More importantly, when Joel prophesied that God would pour out His Spirit upon on all flesh, Joel 2:28, that same Spirit is identified as the Holy Ghost in Acts 2:4. And the Holy Ghost of the NT is that Spirit of God in the OT.

Would the Jews, at any time, change their belief in God? No, they never would.

"Shema Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Ehad"

"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." (Deut 6:4)

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Did you notice in that same chapter, specifically verse 28, that Thomas identifies Jesus Christ as "My Lord and/even My God"?

You do realize that when Jesus addresses Himself in this way, He is identifying who He is? He instructs Mary to go and "tell the brethren" that he is ascending to His Father, your Father, His God and your God."

What would the brethren understand here?...That the only words they have before them are:

"I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another..." Isaiah 42:8

"Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour." Isaiah 43:10-11

"I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." Isaiah 44:6

"I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;" Isaiah 4:24

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6

More importantly, when Joel prophesied that God would pour out His Spirit upon on all flesh, Joel 2:28, that same Spirit is identified as the Holy Ghost in Acts 2:4. And the Holy Ghost of the NT is that Spirit of God in the OT.

Would the Jews, at any time, change their belief in God? No, they never would.

"Shema Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Ehad"

"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." (Deut 6:4)

Ummmm if your trying to convince walks in Islam that there is only 1 God I'm pretty sure he already believes that.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Ummmm if your trying to convince walks in Islam that there is only 1 God I'm pretty sure he already believes that.

That wasn't the point of my post.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Ummmm if your trying to convince walks in Islam that there is only 1 God I'm pretty sure he already believes that.

Please note "who" is speaking in Hebrews 1. God is saying:

"But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."

When God speaks, he speaks to the source. In Genesis 1, He speaks to the elements, "Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself..."

The ground is the plant source.

When He speaks to and of Himself, He is speaking to the source. That is why He can emphatically say unto the "son", "They throne, O God..."

He is God, the father and the son.

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature." Colossians 1:15

Jesus Christ is presented here as the image of God, the invisible. "Image" in Greek, Eikon always assumes a prototype (the original form from which it is drawn), not merely a thing it resembles (e.g., the reflection of the sun in the water is an eikon). Paul was telling the Colossians here that Jesus Christ has a "prototype", God the Father who is invisible. - Spiros Zodhiates

"But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and made in the likeness of men." Philippians 2:7

The phrase in verse seven, "took upon him the form of a servant," should be understood as "having taken..." which denotes that He became as a servant in man's likeness at His incarnation, and that he did not possess that form before that time. His purpose in coming as a man in order to die for the sins of mankind. The key idea to consider is that Christ was and is who He claimed to be - God. - Spiros Zodhiates

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Please note "who" is speaking in Hebrews 1. God is saying:

"But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."

When God speaks, he speaks to the source. In Genesis 1, He speaks to the elements, "Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself..."

The ground is the plant source.

When He speaks to and of Himself, He is speaking to the source. That is why He can emphatically say unto the "son", "They throne, O God..."

He is God, the father and the son.

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature." Colossians 1:15

Jesus Christ is presented here as the image of God, the invisible. "Image" in Greek, Eikon always assumes a prototype (the original form from which it is drawn), not merely a thing it resembles (e.g., the reflection of the sun in the water is an eikon). Paul was telling the Colossians here that Jesus Christ has a "prototype", God the Father who is invisible. - Spiros Zodhiates

"But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and made in the likeness of men." Philippians 2:7

The phrase in verse seven, "took upon him the form of a servant," should be understood as "having taken..." which denotes that He became as a servant in man's likeness at His incarnation, and that he did not possess that form before that time. His purpose in coming as a man in order to die for the sins of mankind. The key idea to consider is that Christ was and is who He claimed to be - God. - Spiros Zodhiates

The "who" speaking in Hebrews 1 is not "God" it is the one who penned the letter. Did you notice that right after that he says of the Son:

Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.

Jesus has a God, the same God we have. Please add Hebrews 1 to the growing list of references and sources that declare so.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

The "who" speaking in Hebrews 1 is not "God" it is the one who penned the letter. Did you notice that right after that he says of the Son:

Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.

Jesus has a God, the same God we have. Please add Hebrews 1 to the growing list of references and sources that declare so.

Actually, Jesus Christ is being addressed as God, which only supports and does not conflict with Isaiah 9:6.

Just because he is making a distinction between spirit and flesh in verse 9, doesn't mean He is also making a separation. He makes the distinction throughout the NT, but there is never a separation.

How can there be a separation when He says in Isaiah 42:8 - " I am the Lord/self existent or eternal: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images."

He doesn't give His "glory/weight" to anyone.

Consequently, the Jews, traditionally, believed the angels praised God upon his throne, mediated God's revelation to men, attended to God's will, and gave aid to the people of God.

Jesus Christ was superior to angels (Hebrew 1:4), having obtained a more excellent name, not by inheritance does he have a more excellent name, but as God naturally and essentially.... God manifest in the flesh, but He obtains the inheritance by His sufferings.

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Actually, Jesus Christ is being addressed as God, which only supports and does not conflict with Isaiah 9:6.

Just because he is making a distinction between spirit and flesh in verse 9, doesn't mean He is also making a separation. He makes the distinction throughout the NT, but there is never a separation.

How can there be a separation when He says in Isaiah 42:8 - " I am the Lord/self existent or eternal: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images."

He doesn't give His "glory/weight" to anyone.

Consequently, the Jews, traditionally, believed the angels praised God upon his throne, mediated God's revelation to men, attended to God's will, and gave aid to the people of God.

Jesus Christ was superior to angels (Hebrew 1:4), having obtained a more excellent name, not by inheritance does he have a more excellent name, but as God naturally and essentially.... God manifest in the flesh, but He obtains the inheritance by His sufferings.

Nobody here questions the superiority of Jesus to the angels. Doesn't make him God.

Same book, Chapter 4:

12 for the reckoning of God is living, and working, and sharp above every two-edged sword, and piercing unto the dividing asunder both of soul and spirit, of joints also and marrow, and a discerner of thoughts and intents of the heart;

13 and there is not a created thing not manifest before Him, but all things [are] naked and open to His eyes -- with whom is our reckoning.

14 Having, then, a great chief priest passed through the heavens -- Jesus the Son of God -- may we hold fast the profession,

15 for we have not a chief priest unable to sympathise with our infirmities, but [one] tempted in all things in like manner

Skip to James 1

For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;

Skip to Genesis 22

And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.

Summary: Skipping around your book could really create a mess. I believe I'll stick with my own path.

Next time I post, it will be from Saudi. It has been an enlightening discussion. Gotta fold the laptop!

God Bless Texas!

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Nobody here questions the superiority of Jesus to the angels. Doesn't make him God.

Same book, Chapter 4:

12 for the reckoning of God is living, and working, and sharp above every two-edged sword, and piercing unto the dividing asunder both of soul and spirit, of joints also and marrow, and a discerner of thoughts and intents of the heart;

13 and there is not a created thing not manifest before Him, but all things [are] naked and open to His eyes -- with whom is our reckoning.

14 Having, then, a great chief priest passed through the heavens -- Jesus the Son of God -- may we hold fast the profession,

15 for we have not a chief priest unable to sympathise with our infirmities, but [one] tempted in all things in like manner

Skip to James 1

For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;

Skip to Genesis 22

And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.

Summary: Skipping around your book could really create a mess. I believe I'll stick with my own path.

Next time I post, it will be from Saudi. It has been an enlightening discussion. Gotta fold the laptop!

God Bless Texas!

God’s Word is only confusing if we don’t study it out or have it revealed to us by God.

The clue to the context of “tempted”, in the book of James, would be found in verse 12.

There are two meanings defined in this one chapter:

1. Enticement/solicitation to sin
2. Testing/proving.

“Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried , he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.” James 1:12 (KJV)

“ Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.” James 1:12 (NIV)

Temptation - Peirasmos - a putting to proof. From the root word, peirazō - to test.

Peirazo has several meanings, one being “enticed”. In the context of James 1:12, it can only mean persevering under trial.

James 1:14 clearly speaks of enticing and soliciting to sin.

“But every man is tempted , when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed .” James 1:14

Lust: epithumia
From G1937; a longing (especially for what is forbidden): - concupiscence, desire, lust (after).



"And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said , Behold, here I am." Genesis 22:1

How do we know that Abraham understood that God was not soliciting him to sin?

“And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship , and come again to you.” Genesis 22:5

He knew it was a test of faith and not an enticement to sin.



“That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth , though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Trial: dokimion
Neuter of a presumed derivative of G1382; a testing; by implication trustworthiness:

“For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.” Hebrews 4:15

Infirmities: astheneia
From G772; feebleness (of body or mind); by implication malady; moral frailty: - disease, infirmity, sickness, weakness.

“For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;” Hebrews 7:26

Conclusion: “God cannot be tempted” would be correct as there is nothing in God that could persuade Him to sin.

“Neither does He tempt any man” would be correct as a solicitation to sin and a trial from providential situation or circumstances are two very different things.

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Did you notice in that same chapter, specifically verse 28, that Thomas identifies Jesus Christ as "My Lord and/even My God"?

You do realize that when Jesus addresses Himself in this way, He is identifying who He is? He instructs Mary to go and "tell the brethren" that he is ascending to His Father, your Father, His God and your God."

What would the brethren understand here?...That the only words they have before them are:

"I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another..." Isaiah 42:8

"Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour." Isaiah 43:10-11

"I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." Isaiah 44:6

"I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;" Isaiah 4:24

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6

More importantly, when Joel prophesied that God would pour out His Spirit upon on all flesh, Joel 2:28, that same Spirit is identified as the Holy Ghost in Acts 2:4. And the Holy Ghost of the NT is that Spirit of God in the OT.

Would the Jews, at any time, change their belief in God? No, they never would.

"Shema Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Ehad"

"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." (Deut 6:4)

No I noticed what Jesus said. Right there. Without bouncing around from place to place to unrelated verses.