Question?

[rick g mcmahan]

i was wondering if there was anyone at all on here lol i just loged on to the 21 century

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by rick g mcmahan

i was wondering if there was anyone at all on here lol i just loged on to the 21 century

Welcome, there is a nice group here.
some Apostolics and a few from other beliefs

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by shazeep

personally, i would be much more impressed with a pastor that presented all the sides, defending their own view while admitting that they really didn't know. Frankly, i believe the answer to all of those imponderables is, "Everyone is wrong; no one can even imagine what 'right' is in this matter; it is basically irrelevant to your salvation. You are wasting your time chasing wind." (It certainly all smells like wind to me! )

This is where I am trying to be. It's hard though. Very. To stop valuing things the way I once did is nearly impossible. But I am getting closer to that goal.

There was a time even in my deepest doubts and questioning of the beliefs that I once held dear. Tongues, Acts 2:38, oneness and so much more. I held on to the belief that I am on a journey and will eventually come to the truth and that this was God's way of getting me there. I mean I can't make myself believe something which I don't..Amen? And so I must remain on a journey till I reach my destination. I wasn't sure where that was but I think my destination is now in sight.

The things which I thought mattered do not. The things which I researched so much about for my salvations sake were never salvation issues.

I think Jesus summed it up when he said, he that loves me keeps my commandments. It's not about when you believe a man is saved. It's not about whether you believe Jesus is God. It's not about tongues either. Jesus is concerned with action not belief. Or to be theologically sound I should say he is only concerned with the faith that produces actions.

Do you believe that he really died for your sins? Do you really? Do you believe that he is your Lord and savior? Do you really? What do you think someone that truly believes Jesus died for your sins and thinks he's lord and savior... what does a true believer in those things act like? Because I don't think any of us even remotely immitate a true believer's actions in the most important things.

It's sad we spend more time chasing the wind than on the things that really matter.

[shazeep]

yes; it is so easy to remain stuck in ones beginning model their whole life, some verses memorized, but otherwise Christ on a shelf.

Originally Posted by jfrog

There was a time even in my deepest doubts and questioning of the beliefs that I once held dear.

ya, i think it's good to test those, but really the ones that don't really have a single, valid answer, but maybe more? and no one can prove them conclusively? a sign, to me. It's like come on, what does perceiving God as one, threee, or seheaven matter to my walk already. He IS also infinite, and we wrangle about one or three or even two :rofl

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by rick g mcmahan

i was wondering if there was anyone at all on here lol i just loged on to the 21 century

don't worry, you'll get struck by some 18th and 19th soon enough! hi ntmy

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by shazeep

ya, i think it's good to test those, but really the ones that don't really have a single, valid answer, but maybe more? and no one can prove them conclusively? a sign, to me. It's like come on, what does perceiving God as one, threee, or seheaven matter to my walk already. He IS also infinite, and we wrangle about one or three or even two :rofl

I've often thought that if we as Christians all spent the 2 up to 6 hours a week we go to church and listen to a preacher and some Christian music an instead spent that time feeding the poor and helping the elderly and the children that Christian differences would melt and multitudes would come to Christ because of the unity and goodness that Christianity as a whole began to represent.

It's been said idle hands are the devils work... Maybe that's more true than we know...even for Christianity itself.

[shazeep]

you are very close when you have discovered that...i have been a full time volunteer, basically, for the last five years. never going back.

Originally Posted by shazeep

yes; it is so easy to remain stuck in ones beginning model their whole life, some verses memorized, but otherwise Christ on a shelf.ya, i think it's good to test those, but really the ones that don't really have a single, valid answer, but maybe more? and no one can prove them conclusively? a sign, to me. It's like come on, what does perceiving God as one, threee, or seheaven matter to my walk already. He IS also infinite, and we wrangle about one or three or even two :rofl

but i mean, all of it--Eschatology, Godhead, mechanics of salvation, prolly even that herman thing...all yack.

[Carl]

Originally Posted by shazeep

you are very close when you have discovered that...i have been a full time volunteer, basically, for the last five years. never going back.

but i mean, all of it--Eschatology, Godhead, mechanics of salvation, prolly even that herman thing...all yack.

Herman Nutics? I've heard of him.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by shazeep

i can't disagree with that, and even see how the need for a written 'code' to go by seems intuitive, and even mando--as to the first part, how do you know? our doctrines tend to be with the best of intentions--or not, in cases like Original Sin; um, or any of the others, imo (i can't think of a single one i would sign MY name to)--but fatally flawed in some tiny little respect, imo. Just ask...any obvious believer who disagrees with the doctrine! My position there is that they arose from satan, to divide us into 'denominations' (yikes, what a horrible way to think of oneself, spiritually), when they are perfectly fine for an individual believer to hold for a time, a stage, until they are able to put it through the fire, and refine it. All refining must cease when one is 'indoctrinated,' am i correct there?

I'm sure there is some advantage to the...indoctrination; I'll leave that to you, to present its 'good' points, which i am curious to hear, ty.

To determine the truth of a doctrine, that is, to know whether or not the teaching is in and from the Holy Spirit, certain factors must be considered before all else.

1 Corinthians 12:3,

3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed...

John 16:13-14,

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

The first thing to determine if a doctrine is true and of/from the Holy Spirit, is examining whether or not the teaching glorifies Christ (or, conversely, curses Him).

To glorify Christ is to hold Him in the highest regard, to the utmost esteem. This is done first when WHO He is, is upheld (i.e. He is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, the Savior, and etc.). But it is also accomplished when WHAT He is and what He has done, is doing, and has promised that He will do, is likewise honored, cherished, and appreciated.

Doctrines that just don't glorify Christ (that is, they curse Him) just can't be from the Holy Spirit. So, if a brother or sister feels an "unction" in their spirit to begin to believe a certain way, they must resist the urge to run with it, and instead, really examine how this new understanding glorifies Christ Jesus. If there is no glory for Him to be had, I would strongly recommend dismissing it as a whim of the flesh (or worse, a whisper from a seducing spirit).

John 7:6,

6 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

We must have the same attitude. If we go around thinking the doctrine is ours (as opposed to it belonging to the one who sent us), or that the doctrines we believe and teach are merely the doctrines of our preferred affiliations, is it no wonder that we end up in a dark place spiritually?

Jesus affirmed and reaffirmed constantly that it was not of Him or from Him, that anything He said or did came to be (See also John 8:28, 38, and 14:9-11).

We have to ask ourselves: Do we really believe Jesus said the above in John 7:6? If we do, we must realize and accept that He was then NOT bearing false witness against God the Father. This is HUGE.

If we all would stop and think for a moment what it means to bear false witness against God, we might all shut up and not endeavor to teach a thing for awhile.

I'm not talking about false confidence or arrogance. But a man or woman, sent from God, knows without question that the doctrine they teach is not theirs; it's God's.

John 5:36,

36 ...the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

John 10:25,

25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

John 10:37-38,

37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

In the life of every ordained believer in Christ, there must be an external witness of the Holy Spirit, evidenced by what Jesus called the "works of my Father".

These works usually take on a supernatural aspect, but they also encompass emotional undertones. Things like compassion for the lost, the alone, the diseased, the distressed, and etc. are also full proof that Jesus was Who He said He was.

Likewise with us. Notice the bolded verse above. If we are not doing the works of our Father, then the doctrine we teach need not be believed.

Jesus said "...there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me" (Mark 9:39).

Being a vessel of the miraculous is not easy. And if ever God should perform supernaturally through someone, it is likely that person would, at the very least, never dare to speak evil of the Lord. In fact, it is better and more obvious to say that such a person, if ever so used, speaks very highly of the Lord Jesus (and this goes back to the first point, that the Spirit will always glorify Christ),

Now, I realize that not all miraculous works are a vindication of doctrinal truth. But they should be present, collectively speaking, in the lives of believers (or else they are not believers, if Mark 16:17-20 is to be believed).

Lastly,

John 3:11,

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen...

The unfortunate truth is, too many people willingly speak things they do not know (consider Jude 1:10) and testify or bear witness to the truth of things (i.e. what they presume to be true) they have not seen (or personally experienced).

This misleads. As a teacher ordained by God, I have an obligation to not speak anything I do not know and to never testify of things I have not experienced (and so, I try my best never to do so).

Are there things that I do not know?

Yes. I readily admit my own short-comings and limitations as a man, even in the realm of Bible knowledge and practical experience.

But not knowing some things doesn't mean I don't know any thing. I have experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I know what it's like. I can speak on it and share my testimony of how and when it happened. God has used me to lead others to regeneration from above, as well. Time and time again, the experience is always the same, both for them and for myself. Knowledge is continuously reinforced by the experience God permits me to have (and what's more, and better, is that the Scriptural accounts of the experience are recorded as exactly the same!).

But I have never raised someone from the dead. So, I shouldn't go about talking about what it's like raising someone from the dead as though I've experienced that in God. It is, to me, a great unknown.

And that's the problem with Bible teachers: they refuse to stop at the end of their light, and begin to speculate and assume they know what they are talking about as they peer into their own spiritual darkness.

Jesus was and is the light of the world. He could then and can now, see all, for there is no spiritual darkness in Him. He is blind to nothing. We see through an obscured mirror. We only get dusty reflections. Occasionally, our vision improves, as God leads us from one experience (which then grants knowledge) to the next.

So, in the end, it's all about Christ-likeness. The more one becomes like Christ, the less and less spiritual darkness will reside in that person. This opens them up to be a channel through which the anointing of the Holy Spirit can flow. The supernatural begins to occur. Christ is glorified above all others. Knowledge increases as new experiences come. It is then shared, just as the Lord shared what He knew with others. The works that are then done prove that the doctrines being taught are accurate, trustworthy, even given by the Holy Spirit.

This is what the Lord experienced, and so, through His Spirit, He grants us the same opportunity He had to experience it. Refinement, at least with us, is always necessary. But even Jesus learned obedience through the things He suffered. We likewise learn.

John 15:18,

If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

Suffering hatred for the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the truth He represents to the world (Consider John 7:7) is the key to getting to that place of Christ-likeness. As more and more people in the world come to hate us for trying to represent the Lord, the more and more that we, like Christ, need to give ourselves over to prayer (Psalm 109:2-5, especially v. 4).

The praying man or woman of God cannot help but become Christ-like, if they will take the time to take His yoke upon themselves and learn of Him, for then, like Christ, they will "do always those things that please [H]im", meaning God the Father (John 8:29).

John 12:46-50,

46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak

So, in the end, we have got to get to a place where, as with Christ, we can say the exact same thing, because we perfectly and soundly echo only that which Jesus Christ has already taught. But once we are there, we can readily declare to the world that the doctrines we teach are heaven-sent, anointed and given by the Holy Spirit.

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

To determine the truth of a doctrine, that is, to know whether or not the teaching is in and from the Holy Spirit, certain factors must be considered before all else.

1 Corinthians 12:3,



John 16:13-14,



The first thing to determine if a doctrine is true and of/from the Holy Spirit, is examining whether or not the teaching glorifies Christ (or, conversely, curses Him).

To glorify Christ is to hold Him in the highest regard, to the utmost esteem. This is done first when WHO He is, is upheld (i.e. He is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, the Savior, and etc.). But it is also accomplished when WHAT He is and what He has done, is doing, and has promised that He will do, is likewise honored, cherished, and appreciated.

Doctrines that just don't glorify Christ (that is, they curse Him) just can't be from the Holy Spirit. So, if a brother or sister feels an "unction" in their spirit to begin to believe a certain way, they must resist the urge to run with it, and instead, really examine how this new understanding glorifies Christ Jesus. If there is no glory for Him to be had, I would strongly recommend dismissing it as a whim of the flesh (or worse, a whisper from a seducing spirit).

John 7:6,



We must have the same attitude. If we go around thinking the doctrine is ours (as opposed to it belonging to the one who sent us), or that the doctrines we believe and teach are merely the doctrines of our preferred affiliations, is it no wonder that we end up in a dark place spiritually?

Jesus affirmed and reaffirmed constantly that it was not of Him or from Him, that anything He said or did came to be (See also John 8:28, 38, and 14:9-11).

We have to ask ourselves: Do we really believe Jesus said the above in John 7:6? If we do, we must realize and accept that He was then NOT bearing false witness against God the Father. This is HUGE.

If we all would stop and think for a moment what it means to bear false witness against God, we might all shut up and not endeavor to teach a thing for awhile.

I'm not talking about false confidence or arrogance. But a man or woman, sent from God, knows without question that the doctrine they teach is not theirs; it's God's.

John 5:36,



John 10:25,



John 10:37-38,



In the life of every ordained believer in Christ, there must be an external witness of the Holy Spirit, evidenced by what Jesus called the "works of my Father".

These works usually take on a supernatural aspect, but they also encompass emotional undertones. Things like compassion for the lost, the alone, the diseased, the distressed, and etc. are also full proof that Jesus was Who He said He was.

Likewise with us. Notice the bolded verse above. If we are not doing the works of our Father, then the doctrine we teach need not be believed.

Jesus said "...there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me" (Mark 9:39).

Being a vessel of the miraculous is not easy. And if ever God should perform supernaturally through someone, it is likely that person would, at the very least, never dare to speak evil of the Lord. In fact, it is better and more obvious to say that such a person, if ever so used, speaks very highly of the Lord Jesus (and this goes back to the first point, that the Spirit will always glorify Christ),

Now, I realize that not all miraculous works are a vindication of doctrinal truth. But they should be present, collectively speaking, in the lives of believers (or else they are not believers, if Mark 16:17-20 is to be believed).

Lastly,

John 3:11,



The unfortunate truth is, too many people willingly speak things they do not know (consider Jude 1:10) and testify or bear witness to the truth of things (i.e. what they presume to be true) they have not seen (or personally experienced).

This misleads. As a teacher ordained by God, I have an obligation to not speak anything I do not know and to never testify of things I have not experienced (and so, I try my best never to do so).

Are there things that I do not know?

Yes. I readily admit my own short-comings and limitations as a man, even in the realm of Bible knowledge and practical experience.

But not knowing some things doesn't mean I don't know any thing. I have experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I know what it's like. I can speak on it and share my testimony of how and when it happened. God has used me to lead others to regeneration from above, as well. Time and time again, the experience is always the same, both for them and for myself. Knowledge is continuously reinforced by the experience God permits me to have (and what's more, and better, is that the Scriptural accounts of the experience are recorded as exactly the same!).

But I have never raised someone from the dead. So, I shouldn't go about talking about what it's like raising someone from the dead as though I've experienced that in God. It is, to me, a great unknown.

And that's the problem with Bible teachers: they refuse to stop at the end of their light, and begin to speculate and assume they know what they are talking about as they peer into their own spiritual darkness.

Jesus was and is the light of the world. He could then and can now, see all, for there is no spiritual darkness in Him. He is blind to nothing. We see through an obscured mirror. We only get dusty reflections. Occasionally, our vision improves, as God leads us from one experience (which then grants knowledge) to the next.

So, in the end, it's all about Christ-likeness. The more one becomes like Christ, the less and less spiritual darkness will reside in that person. This opens them up to be a channel through which the anointing of the Holy Spirit can flow. The supernatural begins to occur. Christ is glorified above all others. Knowledge increases as new experiences come. It is then shared, just as the Lord shared what He knew with others. The works that are then done prove that the doctrines being taught are accurate, trustworthy, even given by the Holy Spirit.

This is what the Lord experienced, and so, through His Spirit, He grants us the same opportunity He had to experience it. Refinement, at least with us, is always necessary. But even Jesus learned obedience through the things He suffered. We likewise learn.

John 15:18,



Suffering hatred for the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the truth He represents to the world (Consider John 7:7) is the key to getting to that place of Christ-likeness. As more and more people in the world come to hate us for trying to represent the Lord, the more and more that we, like Christ, need to give ourselves over to prayer (Psalm 109:2-5, especially v. 4).

The praying man or woman of God cannot help but become Christ-like, if they will take the time to take His yoke upon themselves and learn of Him, for then, like Christ, they will "do always those things that please [H]im", meaning God the Father (John 8:29).

John 12:46-50,



So, in the end, we have got to get to a place where, as with Christ, we can say the exact same thing, because we perfectly and soundly echo only that which Jesus Christ has already taught. But once we are there, we can readily declare to the world that the doctrines we teach are heaven-sent, anointed and given by the Holy Spirit.