Reformed Theology

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by DaveC519

Aquila, thanks for this video. I personally agree with the author's position.

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It’s important to remember that when ancient Jews spoke about God choosing people, they thought primarily of their nation, not individuals. God chose Israel as a nation to be his “chosen people.” Yet, individuals had a choice as to whether or not they wanted to be part of this corporate election, as Paul elsewhere explicitly teaches (Rom 11). So when Paul says that “God choose us” in Christ, he doesn’t mean “God choose us individuals to be in Christ, as opposed to other individuals he didn’t choose.” What he means is “God choose all of us who are now in Christ.”
What God decided for us ahead of time was not whether we’d be in Christ or not. What he decided ahead of time was what would happen to all who chose to be in Christ. God determined that whoever chooses to be in Christ would be adopted as children and would be “holy and blameless in his sight” (Eph 1:4-5). Now that we are in Christ, what was predestined for this group before the foundation of the world applies to us.
Imagine it like this. Suppose I’m teaching a college class in which I show a certain boring documentary. After the documentary, a student asks me; “Dr. Boyd, when did you decide we’d have to watch this boring documentary?” I reply, “I decided this class would watch this boring documentary six months ago when I put together the syllabus.” The student could then turn and announce to all who were present, “Professor Boyd decided six months ago that we’d have to sit through this boring documentary.”
But notice this: I didn’t decide six months earlier that any particular student would watch – or not watch – the documentary. What I predestined was that whoever chooses to be in my class would watch this documentary. My decision was about the class, not the future individuals who would end up comprising this class. It was up to each student to decide whether what was predestined for the class was also predestined for them. Now that all these particular students had chosen to belong to my class, they could all say; “Dr. Boyd decided six months ago that we would watch this documentary.”


- See more at: http://reknew.org/2014/07/predestina....s4ytrpJ1.dpuf

[DaveC519]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

You might like this article also:

It’s important to remember that when ancient Jews spoke about God choosing people, they thought primarily of their nation, not individuals. God chose Israel as a nation to be his “chosen people.” Yet, individuals had a choice as to whether or not they wanted to be part of this corporate election, as Paul elsewhere explicitly teaches (Rom 11). So when Paul says that “God choose us” in Christ, he doesn’t mean “God choose us individuals to be in Christ, as opposed to other individuals he didn’t choose.” What he means is “God choose all of us who are now in Christ.”
What God decided for us ahead of time was not whether we’d be in Christ or not. What he decided ahead of time was what would happen to all who chose to be in Christ. God determined that whoever chooses to be in Christ would be adopted as children and would be “holy and blameless in his sight” (Eph 1:4-5). Now that we are in Christ, what was predestined for this group before the foundation of the world applies to us.
Imagine it like this. Suppose I’m teaching a college class in which I show a certain boring documentary. After the documentary, a student asks me; “Dr. Boyd, when did you decide we’d have to watch this boring documentary?” I reply, “I decided this class would watch this boring documentary six months ago when I put together the syllabus.” The student could then turn and announce to all who were present, “Professor Boyd decided six months ago that we’d have to sit through this boring documentary.”
But notice this: I didn’t decide six months earlier that any particular student would watch – or not watch – the documentary. What I predestined was that whoever chooses to be in my class would watch this documentary. My decision was about the class, not the future individuals who would end up comprising this class. It was up to each student to decide whether what was predestined for the class was also predestined for them. Now that all these particular students had chosen to belong to my class, they could all say; “Dr. Boyd decided six months ago that we would watch this documentary.”


- See more at: http://reknew.org/2014/07/predestina....s4ytrpJ1.dpuf

Exactly!

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

You might like this article also:

It’s important to remember that when ancient Jews spoke about God choosing people, they thought primarily of their nation, not individuals. God chose Israel as a nation to be his “chosen people.” Yet, individuals had a choice as to whether or not they wanted to be part of this corporate election, as Paul elsewhere explicitly teaches (Rom 11). So when Paul says that “God choose us” in Christ, he doesn’t mean “God choose us individuals to be in Christ, as opposed to other individuals he didn’t choose.” What he means is “God choose all of us who are now in Christ.”
What God decided for us ahead of time was not whether we’d be in Christ or not. What he decided ahead of time was what would happen to all who chose to be in Christ. God determined that whoever chooses to be in Christ would be adopted as children and would be “holy and blameless in his sight” (Eph 1:4-5). Now that we are in Christ, what was predestined for this group before the foundation of the world applies to us.
Imagine it like this. Suppose I’m teaching a college class in which I show a certain boring documentary. After the documentary, a student asks me; “Dr. Boyd, when did you decide we’d have to watch this boring documentary?” I reply, “I decided this class would watch this boring documentary six months ago when I put together the syllabus.” The student could then turn and announce to all who were present, “Professor Boyd decided six months ago that we’d have to sit through this boring documentary.”
But notice this: I didn’t decide six months earlier that any particular student would watch – or not watch – the documentary. What I predestined was that whoever chooses to be in my class would watch this documentary. My decision was about the class, not the future individuals who would end up comprising this class. It was up to each student to decide whether what was predestined for the class was also predestined for them. Now that all these particular students had chosen to belong to my class, they could all say; “Dr. Boyd decided six months ago that we would watch this documentary.”


- See more at: http://reknew.org/2014/07/predestina....s4ytrpJ1.dpuf

Great points.

[Sabby]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

You might like this article also:

It’s important to remember that when ancient Jews spoke about God choosing people, they thought primarily of their nation, not individuals. God chose Israel as a nation to be his “chosen people.” Yet, individuals had a choice as to whether or not they wanted to be part of this corporate election, as Paul elsewhere explicitly teaches (Rom 11). So when Paul says that “God choose us” in Christ, he doesn’t mean “God choose us individuals to be in Christ, as opposed to other individuals he didn’t choose.” What he means is “God choose all of us who are now in Christ.”
What God decided for us ahead of time was not whether we’d be in Christ or not. What he decided ahead of time was what would happen to all who chose to be in Christ. God determined that whoever chooses to be in Christ would be adopted as children and would be “holy and blameless in his sight” (Eph 1:4-5). Now that we are in Christ, what was predestined for this group before the foundation of the world applies to us.
Imagine it like this. Suppose I’m teaching a college class in which I show a certain boring documentary. After the documentary, a student asks me; “Dr. Boyd, when did you decide we’d have to watch this boring documentary?” I reply, “I decided this class would watch this boring documentary six months ago when I put together the syllabus.” The student could then turn and announce to all who were present, “Professor Boyd decided six months ago that we’d have to sit through this boring documentary.”
But notice this: I didn’t decide six months earlier that any particular student would watch – or not watch – the documentary. What I predestined was that whoever chooses to be in my class would watch this documentary. My decision was about the class, not the future individuals who would end up comprising this class. It was up to each student to decide whether what was predestined for the class was also predestined for them. Now that all these particular students had chosen to belong to my class, they could all say; “Dr. Boyd decided six months ago that we would watch this documentary.”


- See more at: http://reknew.org/2014/07/predestina....s4ytrpJ1.dpuf

I completely agree with the above statement.

What he (Paul) means is “God choose all of us who are now in Christ.”
The Church is predestined to be saved, sanctified, filled with good works, to be pure and holy without blame before Him "in love".

There are far too many holes to fill if buying into the TULIP.
Totally depraved? Who defines depravement and it's manifestation? Calvin? Original Sin? hmmm. I haven't come to terms with the moral equivalent of Mother Teresa and Osama Bin Laden or John Dillinger.
I agree the CHURCH is Unconditionally "elected" or chosen.
Limited atonement? Not if Christ gave his life for the WORLD.
Irrestible grace? Some have resisted to their folly. The entymology of the word "irrestible" also needs a deeper look through non-Calvinic lenses.
Perserverance = enduring 'til the end makes a good argument, however the stories of the prodigal and Jesus' comments about those that do the will of God illustrate the longsuffering of God towards those that return to Him, who through bad circumstances or bad choices lose confidence or hope for a season. That they returned "home" is key. They ALREADY had a relationship, but they changed their thinking (repented) about walking away from God and the Church. They didn't need a second "new birth" (maybe another water baptism) because they had already been "born again".
Grace must be blended into the mix.
Let's look at TULIP again with a reflexive second-look through the cross.