Has there ALWAYS been a true church?

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Esaias

So... the church then is not a definite local assembly of believers? But rather an iinvisiblembership list of individuals? Often based solely upon whether or not the individual believes in Jesus (however defined)?

Honestly I find that hard to believe. It seems to be counter to the teaching of the Bible. Regardless of what constitutes correct theology vs heresy does not the bible indicate the church is an assembly of God's people? An actual assembly?

See Aquila's answer.

I find it even harder to believe is a definite local assembly of believers, and much more difficult to believe that such an assembly has an unbroken line back to Christ and the apostles.

There has always been a church, but not only one name (catholic, Orthodox, Presbyterian, Pentecostal, Baptist, etc). The only "name" that unifies the church is Jesus.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

See Aquila's answer.

I find it even harder to believe is a definite local assembly of believers, and much more difficult to believe that such an assembly has an unbroken line back to Christ and the apostles.

There has always been a church, but not only one name (catholic, Orthodox, Presbyterian, Pentecostal, Baptist, etc). The only "name" that unifies the church is Jesus.

Can this be demonstrated by scripture?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Can this be demonstrated by scripture?

Yes...

Matthew 13:27-30 English Standard Version (ESV)
27 And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.’”

Also...

1 Corinthians 11:19 King James Version (KJV)
19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

There will always be false teachings and heresies among the true believers. In fact, it is these heresies that allow those who truly know Scripture to be made manifest. We see this throughout Christian history... even in times of great apostasy.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Yes...

Matthew 13:27-30 English Standard Version (ESV)
27 And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.’”

Does this not teach that in world there are sons of God and also sons of the wicked one, and that the wicked will be cast out and burned but the righteous will inherit the kingdom? How can this be teaching "the Lord will have no identifiable ekklesia until Judgement Day"? Seems quite a stretch to get that from the text.

Also...

1 Corinthians 11:19 King James Version (KJV)
19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

Paul wrote to a definite assembly and says there are divisions and factions (heresies) among them. Nevertheless it cannot be denied he was speaking to a definite local apostolic assembly of believers.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Does this not teach that in world there are sons of God and also sons of the wicked one, and that the wicked will be cast out and burned but the righteous will inherit the kingdom? How can this be teaching "the Lord will have no identifiable ekklesia until Judgement Day"? Seems quite a stretch to get that from the text.

Christ's very point was that we can't separate the wheat from the tares because they grow together. In other words, in any given body there will be false believers and true believers. Even within churches affiliated with mainstream Apostolic organizations we have to keep in mind, not every member is a true believer. And if that can be said of nearly any congregation... we can't truly differentiate all the true believers from all the false believers.

Paul wrote to a definite assembly and says there are divisions and factions (heresies) among them. Nevertheless it cannot be denied he was speaking to a definite local apostolic assembly of believers.

True, but we also realize that churches today are not much different than churches then. Thus, we should expect that a degree of false teaching exists within every congregation.

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Paul wrote to a definite assembly and says there are divisions and factions (heresies) among them. Nevertheless it cannot be denied he was speaking to a definite local apostolic assembly of believers.

Should one employ your process of thinking about something in a logical way in order to form a conclusion or judgment when reading the scriptures, then why not rip out Paul's entire letters from the New Testament?

Were not each of them addressed to specific assemblies or individuals?

According to Paul's explicitly statement of II Timothy 3:16-17, KJV, did he not state that ALL SCRIPTURE IS GIVEN BY INSPIRATION OF GOD, AND IS PROFITABLE FOR DOCTRINE, FOR REPROOF, FOR CORRECTION, FOR INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS: THAT THE MAN OF GOD MAY BE PERFECT, THOROUGHLY FURNISHED UNTO ALL GOOD WORKS?

Your statements reminds me of one who states they would rather believe, and repeat the words of Jesus that are written in Matthew 28:19 when baptizing another, than those which Peter commanded as recorded in Acts 2:238.

Just saying ...

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Lafon

Should one employ your process of thinking about something in a logical way in order to form a conclusion or judgment when reading the scriptures, then why not rip out Paul's entire letters from the New Testament?

Were not each of them addressed to specific assemblies or individuals?

According to Paul's explicitly statement of II Timothy 3:16-17, KJV, did he not state that ALL SCRIPTURE IS GIVEN BY INSPIRATION OF GOD, AND IS PROFITABLE FOR DOCTRINE, FOR REPROOF, FOR CORRECTION, FOR INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS: THAT THE MAN OF GOD MAY BE PERFECT, THOROUGHLY FURNISHED UNTO ALL GOOD WORKS?

Your statements reminds me of one who states they would rather believe, and repeat the words of Jesus that are written in Matthew 28:19 when baptizing another, than those which Peter commanded as recorded in Acts 2:238.

Just saying ...

You aren't making any sense. I am saying Paul wrote to a definite local apostolic assembly, THEREFORE what he said about "the church" cannot be construed to mean there is no such thing as a definite local apostolic assembly.

It seems to me that because of the belief in a universal ("catholic" in greek!) invisible "church" which is not an actual ekklesia, many folks have a hard time even grasping the idea of the ekklesia of God being a definite local assembly. Which makes communication difficult as terms are given different meanings. Much like when Jehovah's so-called "Witnesses" claim WE are wrong because the catholics invented the Trinity, or when trinitarians argue against us by making a case against Arianism.

As for your comment regarding baptismal formulas I think you've made a huge non-sequitur in regard to my questions on the church.

Keep in mind everyone, I'm not trying to prove a particular point. I am trying to discover the truth about the subject so I will naturally probe every angle relentlessly until satisfied all possibilities have been covered.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Can this be demonstrated by scripture?

hmm, this is exactly what i read @ the parable of the separation of sheep and goats!

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

See Aquila's answer.

I find it even harder to believe is a definite local assembly of believers, and much more difficult to believe that such an assembly has an unbroken line back to Christ and the apostles.

There has always been a church, but not only one name (catholic, Orthodox, Presbyterian, Pentecostal, Baptist, etc). The only "name" that unifies the church is Jesus.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

See Aquila's answer.

I find it even harder to believe is a definite local assembly of believers, and much more difficult to believe that such an assembly has an unbroken line back to Christ and the apostles.

There has always been a church, but not only one name (catholic, Orthodox, Presbyterian, Pentecostal, Baptist, etc). The only "name" that unifies the church is Jesus.

Right....were they all inbred?