Deep Apostolic Teachers?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Sean

The BIG difference is I am scripturally right(freewill giving), and they are scripturally wrong(forced giving).

Forced giving is wrong. However, to hurl condemnations at them, is just as bad as them hurling condemnations at you.

Instead, I pray that the Lord open their eyes. I pray that they begin to see the depth to which this form of extortion keeps them bound and often burdens the poor, widow, and orphaned families in their congregations. I pray that they see that the tithe was not considered a burden in the OT because only those professions connected to the life on the land had to tithe (farmers and herdsmen). Under God's law... widows were exempt. The tithe was a 10% agrarian flat tax that sustained the temple, the Levites, and the storehouse for these needy classes. For those in need... the tithe was a blessing, because they received of it. The way the tithe doctrine is managed today, the tithe is a burden on the very classes God's law would have relieved.

I do not pray for their damnation. I pray for them to receive a revelation on "grace giving".

I believe that education is the best approach. Instead of condemning them... educate them. Beat the drum over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over until they either acquiesce to the truth... or their followers begin to see them as the misinformed and desperate leaders they are. Tithing has a true researchable history. It wasn't universally embraced from NT times. It's an innovation of the institutional church (organized religion).

Here's a little history...

As far back as Cyprian we discover that tithing wasn't practiced by the church. In fact, Cyprian wrote about how he believed the church should be employ tithing to support the newly established priesthood (based on the Levitical system of the OT). He felt that by sustaining a trained and well paid priesthood with tithes, heretics and false teachers could be dealt with officially. If tithing was a universal practice within the church, why would Cyprian contemplate the church's reaction to such an idea? But we continue... After Constantine and the institutionalization of the church in Rome, the ecclesiastical leadership were in wide open debates on how to fund the priesthood and build cathedrals. The Council of Tours in 567 advocated tithing but it was rejected as a practice to be universally enforced. Bishops began buddying up to royalty and soon tithes were made obligatory by civil law in the Carolingian empire in 765. After the Protestant Reformation tithes didn't become mandatory in England until the tenth century. Soon, the notion of tithing was pumped all over the world through the English colonies in Africa, the Middle East, and Asia. Even after the Revolutions when churches and governments became separated, the notion of tithing continued. And it continues to this very day.

Tithing is essentially a Catholic innovation like the Trinity.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Forced giving is wrong. However, to hurl condemnations at them, is just as bad as them hurling condemnations at you.

Instead, I pray that the Lord open their eyes. I pray that they begin to see the depth to which this form of extortion keeps them bound and often burdens the poor, widow, and orphaned families in their congregations. I pray that they see that the tithe was not considered a burden in the OT because only those professions connected to the life on the land had to tithe (farmers and herdsmen). Under God's law... widows were exempt. The tithe was a 10% agrarian flat tax that sustained the temple, the Levites, and the storehouse for these needy classes. For those in need... the tithe was a blessing, because they received of it. The way the tithe doctrine is managed today, the tithe is a burden on the very classes God's law would have relieved.

I do not pray for their damnation. I pray for them to receive a revelation on "grace giving".

I believe that education is the best approach. Instead of condemning them... educate them. Beat the drum over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over until they either acquiesce to the truth... or their followers begin to see them as the misinformed and desperate leaders they are. Tithing has a true researchable history. It wasn't universally embraced from NT times. It's an innovation of the institutional church (organized religion).

Here's a little history...

As far back as Cyprian we discover that tithing wasn't practiced by the church. In fact, Cyprian wrote about how he believed the church should be employ tithing to support the newly established priesthood (based on the Levitical system of the OT). He felt that by sustaining a trained and well paid priesthood with tithes, heretics and false teachers could be dealt with officially. If tithing was a universal practice within the church, why would Cyprian contemplate the church's reaction to such an idea? But we continue... After Constantine and the institutionalization of the church in Rome, the ecclesiastical leadership were in wide open debates on how to fund the priesthood and build cathedrals. The Council of Tours in 567 advocated tithing but it was rejected as a practice to be universally enforced. Bishops began buddying up to royalty and soon tithes were made obligatory by civil law in the Carolingian empire in 765. After the Protestant Reformation tithes didn't become mandatory in England until the tenth century. Soon, the notion of tithing was pumped all over the world through the English colonies in Africa, the Middle East, and Asia. Even after the Revolutions when churches and governments became separated, the notion of tithing continued. And it continues to this very day.

Tithing is essentially a Catholic innovation like the Trinity.

Maybe God is opening their eyes through ME!
I just might be the answer to your prayer brother.
Think about that for a minute...


Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple


Did the Apostles teach tithing in the original church of his day?....I rest my case.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Sean

Maybe God is opening their eyes through ME!
I just might be the answer to your prayer brother.
Think about that for a minute...


Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple


Did the Apostles teach tithing in the original church of his day?....I rest my case.

If God has laid this burden upon your heart, I encourage you. However, once rants of condemnation to "Hell" begin flying... the truly thoughtful members of your audience is blinded by the threat of Hell, instead of considering the validity of your points.

I can debate the best of them on tithing. However, you'll never hear me directly threaten with Hell.

If you don't believe me... consider the previous two posts by other posters. Your message gets lost in the spirit of your condemnation.

Realize that you're out to win hearts and change minds... not to make yourself a martyr and relegate your cause to the sidelines.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Aquila

If God has laid this burden upon your heart, I encourage you. However, once rants of condemnation to "Hell" begin flying... the truly thoughtful members of your audience is blinded by the threat of Hell, instead of considering the validity of your points.

I can debate the best of them on tithing. However, you'll never hear me directly threaten with Hell.

If you don't believe me... consider the previous two posts by other posters. Your message gets lost in the spirit of your condemnation.

Realize that you're out to win hearts and change minds... not to make yourself a martyr and relegate your cause to the sidelines.

Brother, an earlier poster said...."do you know what folks are saying about you?"

I honestly dont care, this was NEVER about me. I am through with these selfish folks. This is about real live SOULS, that are trying to make it into the Kingdom of God. These men have made it an EXCLUSIVE CLUB of their own, charging dues to be part of it. It is no less than a "salvation tax".

I want every single reader to see what I just said....THEY ARE CHARGING DUES TO BE IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD!

[bishoph]

Originally Posted by Sean

Brother, an earlier poster said...."do you know what folks are saying about you?"

I honestly dont care, this was NEVER about me. I am through with these selfish folks. This is about real live SOULS, that are trying to make it into the Kingdom of God. These men have made it an EXCLUSIVE CLUB of their own, charging dues to be part of it. It is no less than a "salvation tax".

I want every single reader to see what I just said....THEY ARE CHARGING DUES TO BE IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD!

I'm glad you're through..........now I hope you give every dime you have to propagating your global rebuke of the religious pimps of the gospel. BTW, as you brush aside those sinners and bump them right into hell in your hurry to rebuke the heresy right out of the church......after a while you'll have a lot of empty churches and a lot of lost souls that you'll have to give account for......because they got sidetracked from reaching souls so theycould fix the tithing problem.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by bishoph

I'm glad you're through..........now I hope you give every dime you have to propagating your global rebuke of the religious pimps of the gospel. BTW, as you brush aside those sinners and bump them right into hell in your hurry to rebuke the heresy right out of the church......after a while you'll have a lot of empty churches and a lot of lost souls that you'll have to give account for......because they got sidetracked from reaching souls so theycould fix the tithing problem.

Well bishop, I have been involved in winning souls in large numbers for 35 years(consistently), including converting some baptist churches to Apostolic.

I have been STOPPED by the Lord in my tracks to deal with this issue...I can only deal with what He wants me to deal with now.

I "brushed" this issue aside for decades and NEVER thought I would have to do this.

Remember. I did not "create" this problem. YOU GUYS DID..I am only trying to straighten it out, with the help of the Lord Jesus.

I met with multiple pastors in my area first(over 10). They just blacklisted me. I tried to go through the "proper" protocol, to no avail.

Well the Lord chose plan "B".....go to the saints, to get to the pastor. Thats what I am doing now.