Image of the Beast

[Sean]

Rev 13:18 KJV Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.



Mike, John gave the answer to ALL that read it....its in the same passage. There is no real mystery here and yes, it HAS been centuries later and we are still counting the number of the beast as the Lords' true church. We are the "hereafter" church of Rev. 4:1 that are still reading and understanding it.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Sean

Rev 13:18 KJV Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.



Mike, John gave the answer to ALL that read it....its in the same passage. There is no real mystery here and yes, it HAS been centuries later and we are still counting the number of the beast as the Lords' true church. We are the "hereafter" church of Rev. 4:1 that are still reading and understanding it.

The number was of a specific man, and that man had to exist in the first century for the people to be able to count it. COUNT means CALCULATE. In other words, his actual NAME calculates to 666. The letters of the Greek and Latin languages had numerical equivalents to them like Hebrew.

THAYER: Thayer Definition:
1) to count with pebbles, to compute, calculate, reckon

[Sean]

Originally Posted by mfblume

The number was of a specific man, and that man had to exist in the first century for the people to be able to count it. COUNT means CALCULATE. In other words, his actual NAME calculates to 666. The letters of the Greek and Latin languages had numerical equivalents to them like Hebrew.

THAYER: Thayer Definition:
1) to count with pebbles, to compute, calculate, reckon

Not so fast Mike, it was written to the "hereafter" group(us) of Rev 4:1 to understand also. That group is us....we understand it today. It will be revealed in its entirety to the world someday. Thank the Lord for giving us a warning of the "man of sin" that is to come and cause ALL to take a mark on their right hand or forehead.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Sean

Not so fast Mike, it was written to the "hereafter" group(us) of Rev 4:1 to understand also. That group is us....we understand it today. It will be revealed in its entirety to the world someday. Thank the Lord for giving us a warning of the "man of sin" that is to come and cause ALL to take a mark on their right hand or forehead.

No it is not written TO a hereafter group. It is written TO the seven churches ABOUT the hereafter, which was not necessarily centuries away. Hereafter can mean a year or so away.

What says it was written TO a hereafter group? It benefits us, but WAS NOT WRITTEN TO US.

Like GALATIANS. It's pure word of God, but not written TO us, but FOR us.

We read John wrote TO the seven churches. But never read TO a HEREAFTER GROUP.

Revelation 1:4 KJV John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;


Revelation 1:11 KJV Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

To continue with what HE TOLD JOHN TO WRITE TO THE 7 CHURCHS ABOUT, Jesus saqid:

Revelation 1:19 KJV Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

He never informed John that the direct audience of the book was to a hereafter group of people, but to the seven churches ABOUT the hereafter issues as well as things in past (THINGS WHICH THOU HAST SEEN) and present (THINGS WHICH ARE).

HEREAFTER is a term used to describe the THINGS he would write about, not a group he would write to. Any English scholar or teacher will confirm that.

never did Jesus CHANGE THE AUDIENCE from the seven churches to anyone else. Especially not a particular group he called HEREAFTER PEOPLE.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by mfblume

No it is not written TO a hereafter group. It is written TO the seven churches ABOUT the hereafter, which was not necessarily centuries away. Hereafter can mean a year or so away.

What says it was written TO a hereafter group? It benefist us, but WAS NOT WRITTEN TO US.

Like GALATIANS. It's pure word of God, but not written TO us, but FOR us.

We read John wrote TO the seven churches. But never read TO a HEREAFTER GROUP.

Revelation 1:4 KJV John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;


Revelation 1:11 KJV Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

To continue with what HE TOLD JOHN TO WRITE TO THE 7 CHURCHS ABOUT, Jesus saqid:

Revelation 1:19 KJV Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

He never informed John that the direct audience of the book was to a hereafter group of people, but to the seven churches ABOUT the hereafter issues as well as things in past (THINGS WHICH THOU HAST SEEN) and present (THINGS WHICH ARE).

HEREAFTER is a term used to describe the THINGS he would write about, not a group he would write to. Any English scholar or teacher will confirm that.

never did Jesus CHANGE THE AUDIENCE from the seven churches to anyone else. Especially not a particular group he called HEREAFTER PEOPLE.

Mike, of course it was written to them,,,,the question we must ask is are WE also the church?

LOOK WHO THE EPISTLES WERE WRITTEN TO....CERTAINLY NOT US, RIGHT? .......
Romans 1:7 (the saints of Rome)
1 Cor. (the CHURCH of God in Corinth) vs 2
2 Cor. (the Church of God at Corinth and Achaia) vs 1
Galatians (the churches of Galatia)vs 2
Ephesians ( the saints at Ephesus) vs 1
Philippians (the saints at Phillipi with the bishops and deacons) vs 1
Colossians (the saints and faithful brethren at Colosse) vs 2
1 Thessalonians (The church) vs 1
2 Thessalonians (the church) vs 1
1 Tim. (to Timothy only) vs 2
2 Tim. (to timothy only) vs 2
Titus (to Titus only) vs 4
Philemon (to Philemon, Apphia, Archippus and his house CHURCH) vs 1 and 2
Hebrews ( The whole thing addressing christians) 2:1, 3:1 (holy brethren) etc.
James ( his saved Jewish BRETHREN scattered abroad) vs 1 and 2
1 Peter (the scattered saints (elect) of God) vs 1 through 4
2 Peter (all saints) vs 1 through 4
1 John (all saints or brethren) chapter 2:7
2 John (the elect lady and her children) vs 1
3 John ( to Gaius only) vs 1
Jude (to them that are sanctified by God...and called)
Revelation (the 7 churches of Asia Minor) chapters 1-3


All of the new testament(EPISTLES) were written to specific folks, but all of the passages are for us also, as long as the Lords' church is still here. INCLUDING, the book of Revelation. The church is awaiting mountains of unfulfilled prophecy that our Lord gave to His ENTIRE church. It is strange that preterists insist that the New Testament commands to "specific" folks must be relevant and followed by us today, but prophetical teachings of Jesus and the Apostles are "fulfilled" or not relevant to the believer.


That is my observation and conclusion of preterism Mike, simply "selective" observing of the New Testament.(with the "prophet" Josephus as its source of interpretation)

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Sean

Mike, of course it was written to them,,,,the question we must ask is are WE also the church?

That question is moot and inapplicable. If GALATIANS was written TO the Galatians about what THEY would see, for example, we might be part of the same church, right? But time-limited and location-restricted events written to them in their day would not be what we would experience.

Otherwise, this MUST be true for YOU right now!

Gal 3:1 KJV O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

This was written to the Galatians in the same church you are in , right? That MUST MEAN that YOU HAVE BEEN BEWITCHED, and it is not actually restricted to the congregation at Galatia. See how absurd that thought is? That is what you have done with Revelation!

Just because we are in the CHURCH overall spanning centuries does not mean something written distinctly to one of the churches in a certain time period will speak of events that always HAVE TO apply to what we will experience as well.

Not only have you effectively tossed out the time-texts of Rev 1:1; 3 and 22:10, but NOW you effectively remove the audience relevancy to the book.

So you have a BOOK WRITTEN TO the first century group of churches in Asia Minor whom you claim have nothing to do with what John wrote IN THE BULK OF THE BOOK! And despite the fact that WE are in he same overall church as they were, THEY have nothing to do with what the books writes about while WE DO! You effectively turned the book completely upsidedown. It's all about us in our day, and not to ANYONE to whom the book was distinctly addressed to.

LOOK WHO THE EPISTLES WERE WRITTEN TO....CERTAINLY NOT US, RIGHT? .......
Romans 1:7 (the saints of Rome)
1 Cor. (the CHURCH of God in Corinth) vs 2
2 Cor. (the Church of God at Corinth and Achaia) vs 1
Galatians (the churches of Galatia)vs 2
Ephesians ( the saints at Ephesus) vs 1
Philippians (the saints at Phillipi with the bishops and deacons) vs 1
Colossians (the saints and faithful brethren at Colosse) vs 2
1 Thessalonians (The church) vs 1
2 Thessalonians (the church) vs 1
1 Tim. (to Timothy only) vs 2
2 Tim. (to timothy only) vs 2
Titus (to Titus only) vs 4
Philemon (to Philemon, Apphia, Archippus and his house CHURCH) vs 1 and 2
Hebrews ( The whole thing addressing christians) 2:1, 3:1 (holy brethren) etc.
James ( his saved Jewish BRETHREN scattered abroad) vs 1 and 2
1 Peter (the scattered saints (elect) of God) vs 1 through 4
2 Peter (all saints) vs 1 through 4
1 John (all saints or brethren) chapter 2:7
2 John (the elect lady and her children) vs 1
3 John ( to Gaius only) vs 1
Jude (to them that are sanctified by God...and called)
Revelation (the 7 churches of Asia Minor) chapters 1-3

All of the new testament(EPISTLES) were written to specific folks, but all of the passages are for us also, as long as the Lords' church is still here. INCLUDING, the book of Revelation. The church is awaiting mountains of unfulfilled prophecy that our Lord gave to His ENTIRE church. It is strange that preterists insist that the New Testament commands to "specific" folks must be relevant and followed by us today, but prophetical teachings of Jesus and the Apostles are "fulfilled" or not relevant to the believer.

That is my observation and conclusion of preterism Mike, simply "selective" observing of the New Testament.(with the "prophet" Josephus as its source of interpretation)[/COLOR]

No, you have shown selectivity more than anyone could possibly do by this post. You conveniently disregarded Rev 1,:1, 3 and Rev 22:10. And now you do the same with rev 1:19.

I noticed you did not respond to my notes about Rev 1:19. Just started accusing and labelling, which is what is done when facing an argument that cannot be answered.

Josephus HAD NOTHING to do with what I see about preterism. NOTHING. Where did you get that from?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by mfblume

That question is moot and inapplicable. If GALATIANS was written TO the Galatians about what THEY would see, for example, we might be part of the same church, right? But time-limited and location-restricted events written to them in their day would not be what we would experience.

Otherwise, this MUST be true for YOU right now!

Gal 3:1 KJV O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

This was written to the Galatians in the same church you are in , right? That MUST MEAN that YOU HAVE BEEN BEWITCHED, and it is not actually restricted to the congregation at Galatia. See how absurd that thought is? That is what you have done with Revelation!


Mike, if you or I try to get the church to move back into keeping the Law of Moses then the curses of Paul towards the heretic Judaizers in Galatia apply to YOU and I. You do understand that, right?

Just because we are in the CHURCH overall spanning centuries does not mean something written distinctly to one of the churches in a certain time period will speak of events that always HAVE TO apply to what we will experience as well.

Not only have you effectively tossed out the time-texts of Rev 1:1; 3 and 22:10, but NOW you effectively remove the audience relevancy to the book.

So you have a BOOK WRITTEN TO the first century group of churches in Asia Minor whom you claim have nothing to do with what John wrote IN THE BULK OF THE BOOK! And despite the fact that WE are in he same overall church as they were, THEY have nothing to do with what the books writes about while WE DO! You effectively turned the book completely upsidedown. It's all about us in our day, and not to ANYONE to whom the book was distinctly addressed to.


It was given to the saints of the day and PASSED DOWN through the generations to us, the "Last Days" saints. They obviously did not see the books' prophecies fulfilled, but we are waiting for the fulfillment of the book of Rev. today.


All of the new testament(EPISTLES) were written to specific folks, but all of the passages are for us also, as long as the Lords' church is still here. INCLUDING, the book of Revelation. The church is awaiting mountains of unfulfilled prophecy that our Lord gave to His ENTIRE church. It is strange that preterists insist that the New Testament commands to "specific" folks must be relevant and followed by us today, but prophetical teachings of Jesus and the Apostles are "fulfilled" or not relevant to the believer.




No, you have shown selectivity more than anyone could possibly do by this post. You conveniently disregarded Rev 1,:1, 3 and Rev 22:10. And now you do the same with rev 1:19.

LOL...you have discarded the ENTIRE first 20 Chapters of Revelation as PAST prophecy...look whos talking.


I noticed you did not respond to my notes about Rev 1:19. Just started accusing and labelling, which is what is done when facing an argument that cannot be answered.

I only gave you my observation of it Mike, you gotta believe me when I say I have been watching you guys and checking things out quietly.


Josephus HAD NOTHING to do with what I see about preterism. NOTHING. Where did you get that from?

Mike, all I ever heard from you guys during our debates is "Josephus said this and that"....cmon bro. you were part of it all.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Sean

[COLOR="Red"]Revelation (the 7 churches of Asia Minor) chapters 1-3

Chapters 1-3 ?????? Where do you get the authority to say ONLY THE FIRST THREE CHAPTERS OF REVELATION were written to the seven churches? That is NOT STATED IN THE ENTIRE BOOK ANYWHERE!

You once again ADDED to the word. Any butchering so long as we keep our tradition, right?

[mfblume]

In the same CHAPTER 1 that He told John to write to the seven churches, he told him to write about the past, present and future. And HE NEVER INDICATED ANOTHER AUDIENCE WAS DIRECTLY WRITTEN TO FROM THOSE SEVEN CHURCHES when he said that.

This is futurism at its best. Twisting plainly stated scriptures.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Chapters 1-3 ?????? Where do you get the authority to say ONLY THE FIRST THREE CHAPTERS OF REVELATION were written to the seven churches? That is NOT STATED IN THE ENTIRE BOOK ANYWHERE!


I didnt say that...if I seemed to imply that, I apologize. I meant that the 4th chapter on was for their reading(of course) but they would not see the prophecies after chapter 3 fulfilled in their lifetimes...it is to the church of all ages, but a warning for the "last Days" church of today of these horrific events to come.(to clarify my statements)

You once again ADDED to the word. Any butchering so long as we keep our tradition, right?

No, just explaining it.(you already know what I believe, you are only "testing" me)...LOL