Apostolic But Not Believing Jesus is The Father?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mfblume

The simple point is that no matter how you slice it, if there are two persons of any kind then there is no oneness. You are the only one who has ever hypothesized differently.

So, there is no "oneness" between a man and wife who are in union and are one flesh? No "oneness" between two distinct braches that have been grafted together? The very term "oneness" demands a union between two (or more) distinct realities.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Aquila

So, there is no "oneness" between a man and wife who are in union and are one flesh?

That is not the context in which I am using the term. Let me clarify. That is not a oneness of person. Brother, they called Oneness by the term "oneness" because it is a contrast of one person from three in trintarianism.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Aquila

So, there is no "oneness" between a man and wife who are in union and are one flesh? No "oneness" between two distinct braches that have been grafted together? The very term "oneness" demands a union between two (or more) distinct realities.

Aquila you are using undefined terms as if we all use them the same

"Oneness" as it pertains to "Oneness Theology" has to do with the Oneness of God..not a Unity of God and someone else.

God is One (Person). One in Number.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Aquila you are using undefined terms as if we all use them the same

"Oneness" as it pertains to "Oneness Theology" has to do with the Oneness of God..not a Unity of God and someone else.

God is One (Person). One in Number.

I know what "Oneness Theology" states. I'm talking about what we see in the Bible. I'm talking about how Jesus describes His oneness with the Father... in His own words.

John 10:30
30 I and my Father are one. (KJV)

John 10:38
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (KJV)

John 12:45
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. (KJV)

John 14:7-10
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (KJV)

If we can't trust the words of Jesus to mean and imply what they clearly mean and imply... what can we trust? The only way to see "Oneness" as classical "Oneness Theology" presents it is... to impose Oneness Theology upon the text and argue that Christ's words and use of language can't be trusted... just as Rev. Blume admitted.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I know what "Oneness Theology" states..

I can't believe you are missing the point...this is a ONENESS discussion and you are dropping the term ONENESS as if we all agree with you on what it means

The point wasn't whether or not you know what Oneness theology states

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I can't believe you are missing the point...this is a ONENESS discussion and you are dropping the term ONENESS as if we all agree with you on what it means

The point wasn't whether or not you know what Oneness theology states

I do know what Oneness theology states. However, I believe it is not an accurate testimony of Scripture. My point is that the man, Jesus Christ, was fully human. Having a human sense of "self" (self-conscious reality), that was distinct from the Father and had an authentic relationship with the Father. Seeing that a being's sense of "self", or self-conscious reality, properly defines it as being a "person", I don't find it in appropriate to refer to the human "self" exemplified in Jesus as an authentic human person.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

God is One (Person). One in Number.

A "person" can be defined as one's self-conscious reality, a "self". We see two distinct self-conscious realities between the Father and the Son. They are one as it relates to being... distinct as it relates to personality.

2 Corinthians 5:19 (KJV)
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself,

1 Timothy 2:5 (KJV)
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

John 14:7-10 (KJV)
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Aquila

A "person" can be defined as one's self-conscious reality, a "self".

So?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

So?

Then a distinct self-conscious reality or "self" can be said to be a distinct person.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Aquila

A "person" can be defined as one's self-conscious reality, a "self".

So? Aquila, you are not Oneness