Apostolic But Not Believing Jesus is The Father?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Aquila

If "person" is defined as a self-conscious reality, yes, two "persons". However, only one divine person revealed in both. One is human, the other divine. Two distinct personalities that mutually indwell one another. Jesus said,

John 14:11
Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

This is plain language. "I am IN the Father", and, "the Father in me". That is quite different from saying, "I am the Father, and, "the Father is me".

Do you believe we see two self-conscious realities relating to one anther when we behold both the Father and the Son?

So you believe in 2 persons

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Agreed, but I would not look at the humanity of Christ and say that humanity is to be worshiped. In fact, Jesus forbade people even calling Him good saying there is none good but God. I reject the idea that Jesus was testing the man to see if he believed He was God in flesh. I would worship Him if I saw Him in flesh, but I would not whatsoever be worshiping the flesh. He'd see my heart and know that.

ok

[Praxeas]

See, I don't make this stuff up. We have people saying two persons

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

See, I don't make this stuff up. We have people saying two persons

Yes.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Aquila

So, you are saying that residing in God's being are two distinct personalities??? One divine... one human? Doesn't this create as much of a Schizophrenic God as Trinitarianism?

One does "residing in God" mean? Is the word "God" a synonym for "building"?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Aquila

So, there is no "oneness" between a man and wife who are in union and are one flesh? No "oneness" between two distinct braches that have been grafted together? The very term "oneness" demands a union between two (or more) distinct realities.

Aquila you are using undefined terms as if we all use them the same

"Oneness" as it pertains to "Oneness Theology" has to do with the Oneness of God..not a Unity of God and someone else.

God is One (Person). One in Number.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Aquila

If there isn't a distinction of person... language would demand that Jesus say,

So it's settled. Aquila is not Oneness. He is a Unitarian who sees two persons, one human and one God

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Aquila

If there isn't a distinction of person... language would demand that Jesus say,

"I, the Father, am one." ... not... "I AND my father ARE one."

Why can't there be a distinction of Manifestation? Why can't there be a distinction of Natures?

Why can't the same Person say "I" as a Man because He has a Human nature?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Back home again! lol



I believe the words are totally trustworthy, but when we add grammatical terms like first person singular speaking to second person singular, confusing the terms as indication of more than one person misses the mark, I think. The terms and their labels were never meant to dictate to us understanding of the Godhead.

Generally speaking, though, language really is based upon multiple human persons, and it just cannot perfectly apply outside of that limitation.

If God really is one person alone, and used our language to interact in his manifestations then you can see how that would pose confusion to us and start a polypersonal doctrine, right?

I don't want you to take this the wrong way. I want you to really think about what I'm saying before just dismissing it. I see an irrational fear of the word "person" among Oneness Apostolics. For example, one of the definitions from Merriam-Webster's Dictionary defines "person" as being one's "personality" or "self". To me, it is clear that the man Jesus Christ has a distinct sense of "self". In Jesus human center of self-conscious reality that is indeed distinct from the Father. For all intents and purposes, He has a distinct personality from that of the Father. We see Him pray to the Father, speak of the Father with distinction, express love towards the Father, speak of the Father's love towards Him, speak of being sent by the Father, speak of going back to the Father, and speaks of the Father as being His "God". He describes Himself as being "in" the Father and the Father being "in" Him; this clearly expresses a mutual indwelling that speaks of a "oneness" or "union" of being. But Christ's "person" (self-conscious reality, "self", and/or personality) remains clearly distinct from that of the Father.

The only way Jesus could have established that He was indeed the same person as the Father would be to speak as the Father while expressing human limitation. Instead of saying, "The Father is greater than I.", Jesus could have said, "I am greater as the Father." Or, "I, the Father, am one." Or, "I came from being the Father, and return to being the Father." Or, "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither me as the Son, but I know all things as the Father." Language would be instrumental in establishing that the person of Jesus was the same as the person of the Father.

Essentially, your arguments are that the distinction of person seen in the man Jesus Christ is only an illusion, a by product of Oneness. However, if Jesus were indeed the same person as the Father, He would express it, speaking as the Father Himself... albeit while also indicating personal limitations.

Now, I don't really have a fear of the word "person". I clearly see a distinct "human person" in the man Jesus Christ. Truth is truth. I'd rather be true to Scripture than an eisegetical angle of theology. Notice, I draw distinction between "human person" and "divine person". So, I contend that I too only see one "divine person" in the man Jesus Christ, the indwelling Father. Even in the "human person" of Jesus, I see the "divine person" of the Father made flesh, for the man Jesus Christ was fashioned in the express image of God's own person. So, between the Father and the Son... only one divine person is revealed.... YHVH.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

So you believe in 2 persons

I truly believe in the reality of the man, Jesus Christ... and His Father, God Almighty.