Would you stay in a church if...

[thephnxman]

I believe that most of us are part of (belong to) a congregation whose teachings are most closely related to what we believe is the Truth;
and that no one will remain in a place whose core values are grossly different.

Personally, I would not tolerate preaching that would neglect or deny any part of Mark 16:16;
this, of course includes Acts 2:38; and I Corinthians 15:1-4.

Additionally, I would rather be among ministers that are "...apt to learn."

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

I believe that most of us are part of (belong to) a congregation whose teachings are most closely related to what we believe is the Truth;
and that no one will remain in a place whose core values are grossly different.

Personally, I would not tolerate preaching that would neglect or deny any part of Mark 16:16;
this, of course includes Acts 2:38; and I Corinthians 15:1-4.

Additionally, I would rather be among ministers that are "...apt to learn."

Agreed.

[Esphes45]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

I believe that most of us are part of (belong to) a congregation whose teachings are most closely related to what we believe is the Truth;
and that no one will remain in a place whose core values are grossly different.

Personally, I would not tolerate preaching that would neglect or deny any part of Mark 16:16;
this, of course includes Acts 2:38; and I Corinthians 15:1-4.

Additionally, I would rather be among ministers that are "...apt to learn."

I agree but from my experience preachers are not willing to even consider something they might have missed if it will involve changing their ways.

That is very bad and definitely not spiritual. Your Holy Ghost should hear the Word.

If you are in-charge/over/whatever a flock you should very careful about what you are teaching them.

I myself left a church because it was teaching my children stuff I didn't agree with. I consider my household my church and it is up to me to make sure what they hear is truth.

Preachers need to be able to separate personal thoughts from God's thoughts. Then we could be in unity, preach truth and have church like God intended

Again I say if we accept anything less than 100% truth, God's coming was in vain because he brought it. Who God sent will speak God's Word

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by Esphes45

I agree but from my experience preachers are not willing to even consider something they might have missed if it will involve changing their ways.
That is very bad and definitely not spiritual. Your Holy Ghost should hear the Word.
If you are in-charge/over/whatever a flock you should very careful about what you are teaching them.
I myself left a church because it was teaching my children stuff I didn't agree with. I consider my household my church and it is up to me to make sure what they hear is truth.
Preachers need to be able to separate personal thoughts from God's thoughts. Then we could be in unity, preach truth and have church like God intended
Again I say if we accept anything less than 100% truth, God's coming was in vain because he brought it. Who God sent will speak God's Word

Too many folks are stuck in "denominational doctrine": which I would define as doctrine that does not measure up to scripture;
Definitely: we should be sensitive to the leading if the Holy Spirit and discern that which is our personal opinion;
We need to be wary of the Lord’s admonishment to the “Watchman”;
Yes! We have the ultimate responsibility for our household: “For your ways are not my ways, neither your thoughts
my thoughts…”. We need to make the Lord’s thoughts our thoughts; that His ways may become our ways;
Presently, the only 100% truth we have is the 100% we believe: unless we believe that our personal 100% is greater than
the 100% of the ministry; which is, “…and some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers…”.

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Too many folks are stuck in "denominational doctrine": which I would define as doctrine that does not measure up to scripture;
Definitely: we should be sensitive to the leading if the Holy Spirit and discern that which is our personal opinion;
We need to be wary of the Lord’s admonishment to the “Watchman”;
Yes! We have the ultimate responsibility for our household: “For your ways are not my ways, neither your thoughts
my thoughts…”. We need to make the Lord’s thoughts our thoughts; that His ways may become our ways;
Presently, the only 100% truth we have is the 100% we believe: unless we believe that our personal 100% is greater than
the 100% of the ministry; which is, “…and some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers…”.

Are you asserting, or even suggesting, that "the ministry" (whom you apparently believe to consist of ONLY "apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers" - forgive me if I'm amiss in my understanding of that which you've written which has caused me to arrive at such a conclusion) are the ONLY members of the "royal priesthood" (of which every saint is a part - see I Peter 2:9) that have been made to possess 100% of the truth? THAT, my friend, sounds an awfully lot likened to the doctrine of Roman Catholicism which claims that ONLY the priests possess the ability, therefore the authority to interpret the Scriptures. And I MUST, with righteous indignation, and in the strongest terms possible, reject it forthwith!

I would remind you that a "pastor" is a "teacher," as evidenced by the absence of either a comma or semicolon (a punctuation mark used chiefly in a coordinating function between major sentence elements, as independent clauses of a compound sentence) such as is found in Paul's statement of Ephesians 4:11. Even in the ESV, where the word "shepherds" appears, there exists neither comma or semicolon, thus indicating that Paul was simply describing the "function" of a pastor as being a teacher. Accordingly, I am persuaded to believe that Paul was NOT referring to two (3) separate, or distinctly different "functions" of certain individuals whom God has "gifted" with the ability to perform within an assembly of His saints (the Church), rather he was simply and ONLY describing the "function" of a "pastor" as being that of a "teacher."

Secondly, when our Lord stated, and quite explicitly so, that "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it," He was, in essence, stating that ever since the ministry of John the Baptist, when the "kingdom of God" began to be preached by Himself (see Mark 1:14-15), then EVERY MAN (meaning each member of the "kingdom of God") has been "pressed" into the task of preaching about the things of God's kingdom, which MUST include those things that pertain to the Gospel of Christ.

This responsibility DOES NOT rests exclusively with those who "function" in an assembly of saints as "apostles, prophets, evangelists, or pastors" ONLY, but to EVERY member of that body!

Respectfully submitted, NOT as a basis for contention, rather as an expression of my beliefs which (apparently) stand in contradiction with yours, and tendered for the consideration of their merits by you and others.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by Lafon

(1) Are you asserting, or even suggesting, that "the ministry" (whom you apparently believe to consist of ONLY "apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers" -

(2) forgive me if I'm amiss in my understanding of that which you've written which has caused me to arrive at such a conclusion) are the ONLY members of the "royal priesthood" (of which every saint is a part - see I Peter 2:9) that have been made to possess 100% of the truth?

(3) THAT, my friend, sounds an awfully lot likened to the doctrine of Roman Catholicism which claims that ONLY the priests possess the ability, therefore the authority to interpret the Scriptures. And I MUST, with righteous indignation, and in the strongest terms possible, reject it forthwith!

(4) I would remind you that a "pastor" is a "teacher," as evidenced by the absence of either a comma or semicolon (a punctuation mark used chiefly in a coordinating function between major sentence elements, as independent clauses of a compound sentence) such as is found in Paul's statement of Ephesians 4:11. Even in the ESV, where the word "shepherds" appears, there exists neither comma or semicolon, thus indicating that Paul was simply describing the "function" of a pastor as being a teacher.

(5)Accordingly, I am persuaded to believe that Paul was NOT referring to two (3) separate, or distinctly different "functions" of certain individuals whom God has "gifted" with the ability to perform within an assembly of His saints (the Church), rather he was simply and ONLY describing the "function" of a "pastor" as being that of a "teacher."

(6)Secondly, when our Lord stated, and quite explicitly so, that "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it," He was, in essence, stating that ever since the ministry of John the Baptist, when the "kingdom of God" began to be preached by Himself (see Mark 1:14-15), then EVERY MAN (meaning each member of the "kingdom of God") has been "pressed" into the task of preaching about the things of God's kingdom, which MUST include those things that pertain to the Gospel of Christ.

(7)This responsibility DOES NOT rests exclusively with those who "function" in an assembly of saints as "apostles, prophets, evangelists, or pastors" ONLY, but to EVERY member of that body!

(8)Respectfully submitted, NOT as a basis for contention, rather as an expression of my beliefs which (apparently) stand in contradiction with yours, and tendered for the consideration of their merits by you and others.

(1) The ministry FOR the Church is one; the ministry OF the Church, another. As a “teacher”, you should already know the difference;

(2) Yes, you are TERRIBLY amiss; you seem to be interpreting my words as you interpret some of the scriptures;

(3) If you wouild have read my posts with an open mind, you would realize I am no a Catholic; had you refuted my post with “righteous indignation”, I would have submitted to your arguments;

(4) So you believe that the ministry for the Church consists only of four offices? And that the scribes that were ordered to write the Bible used punctuation marks, capital letters, and grammar as we know it today?

(5) Here’s a question: was the Apostle Paul ever a “pastor”? No scripture for that, right? Was he a “preacher”? Yes! Was he a “teacher”? Yes! Was he called to be an “apostle”? Yes! Was he endowed with “gifts” to perform the function or offices to which he was called? Yes!

(6) Your interpretation is not scriptural; you seem to be saying that we have been drafted into the kingdom;

(7) You are, of course, reading all of that into my post. Try praying before you post;

(8) Of course you are contending! You have admitted that you are not replying to this post; but rather, that your judgment has been clouded by previous posts, and you are now responding under that clouded judgment!

[Esphes45]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Too many folks are stuck in "denominational doctrine": which I would define as doctrine that does not measure up to scripture;

I agree. There is no such thing as "denominational doctrine". One plan, One body - The Church

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Definitely: we should be sensitive to the leading if the Holy Spirit and discern that which is our personal opinion;

Amen to that! For example - Just because you believe that voting is wrong does not make it gospel. I have a bunch of personal opinions but I make sure I separate those from God's Word.

Originally Posted by thephnxman

We need to be wary of the Lord’s admonishment to the “Watchman”;

You know what? This seems to be a preacher's get out of jail free card. "God made me a watchman on the wall so I am allow to dictate your life."

A watchman warns the people. Not my way or hell.

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Yes! We have the ultimate responsibility for our household: “For your ways are not my ways, neither your thoughts
my thoughts…”. We need to make the Lord’s thoughts our thoughts; that His ways may become our ways;

How can a man rule the house of God if he can't rule his own house?

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Presently, the only 100% truth we have is the 100% we believe: unless we believe that our personal 100% is greater than
the 100% of the ministry; which is, “…and some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers…”.

All I am going to say is the bible tells me you shall know the truth and it will make you free. I feel like preachers (apostles; prophets; evangelists; pastors and teachers) have messed up the church. They have lend people to believe that there personal way is truth.

This is exactly why there is so much disunity today. People fail to understand that God told us to work out our salvation.

I totally agree with what good samaritan said. The bible backs up his statements.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by Esphes45

(1) You know what? This seems to be a preacher's get out of jail free card. "God made me a watchman on the wall so I am allow to dictate your life."
A watchman warns the people. Not my way or hell.



(2) How can a man rule the house of God if he can't rule his own house?



(3) All I am going to say is the bible tells me you shall know the truth and it will make you free. I feel like preachers (apostles; prophets; evangelists; pastors and teachers) have messed up the church. They have lend people to believe that there personal way is truth.
This is exactly why there is so much disunity today. People fail to understand that God told us to work out our salvation.

I totally agree with what good samaritan said. The bible backs up his statements.

(1) There is only ONE "get out of jail free card": it's hearing, believing, and obeying the gospel that saves;
and then, "...you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
The TRUE Watchman will always speak: "...thus saith the Lord."

(2) But we, as godly men, are called to govern our house according to His principals.

(3) The truth will certainly make us free: and we are called, yes, the Lord makes us
responsible for our own salvation, and for those that hear us.
Nevertheless, it is not the ministry that has "messed up the church".
It is a LACK of the ministry in the church! It is because of the "one-man rule"
within the body that has caused disunity and discord.
We seem to have gotten back to the "...I am of Apollos...I am of
Cephas...I am of Paul..." mentality. Please don't blame the ministry
that the Lord has established for the church rather, pray that the Lord re-establish that which we have almost lost.

I will close with this:
ANYTHING less than the full Apostolic ministry is denominationalism.

A man once told me: "Brother, it doesn't matter what color it's painted: it will still look painted."