"in the Spirit"

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I do not believe a person has been filled with the Spirit if they did not speak in tongues. Paul spoke of praying in the Spirit in the same manner I believe the Apostles spoke of Holy Ghost baptism. It's meant for everyone. He spoke of prayer in tongues, which is the entire context of 1 Cor 14, as something everyone should do. However, not everyone has yet received the Spirit..

That's just the way I see it. I cannot see infilling without tongues, personally.

That's not what I mean. I'm not talking about an initial infilling of the Spirit with the evidence of tongues but afterward, there are those who don't speak in tongues again, imo, because they don't have the gift of tongues. So if one spoke in tongues when they initially received the baptism of the Holy Spirit but never speak in tongues again, then how can they pray in the Spirit if praying in the Spirit always consists of speaking in other tongues?

I think I made that more clear.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

That's not what I mean. I'm not talking about an initial infilling of the Spirit with the evidence of tongues but afterward, there are those who don't speak in tongues again, imo, because they don't have the gift of tongues.

I do not believe a person needs the gift of tongues to continue to speak in tongues after they received the Spirit. I do not have the gift of tongues, but I speak in tongues all the time in prayer. The gift of tongues is only for use with an interpretation to follow, from what I see laid out in scripture.

So if one spoke in tongues when they initially received the baptism of the Holy Spirit but never speak in tongues again, then how can they pray in the Spirit if praying in the Spirit always consists of speaking in other tongues?

I think I made that more clear.

I get your point. But according to 1 Cor 14, and the 2 verses I quote earlier, I believe a person simply is not praying in the spirit if they are not praying in tongues.

[Esaias]

The context of the verse in question is the meeting, and Paul says that we are to prefer prophesying to tongues. He does not limit "in the spirit" to only unknown tongues as the surrounding verses show.

Nowhere is praying in the spirit defined as "praying in tongues". Although praying in tongues is praying in the spirit, the reverse is not true.

For example: Although all genuine miracles are works of the Spirit, not all works of the Spirit are miracles. Although all prophesying is speaking in the Spirit, not all speaking in the Spirit is prophesying.

So the apostle rightly states that if he prays, sings, or speaks in tongues, then he is praying, singing, and speaking in the spirit, because all those activities are done "in the spirit". But it would be an error to say all speaking, praying, or singing in the spirit must necessarily be in tongues.

Further, "my spirit prays but my understanding is unfruitful" does not mean ALL praying in the spirit is unintelligible, otherwise it would mean all praying that is understandable is done WITHOUT THE SPIRIT, which is absurd. For if that were true, no praying would be useful or acceptable unless it was wholly in unknown tongues! What he is saying is plain: if he prays in tongues he is praying in the spirit, BUT his understanding is unfruitful.

Notice the ONLY passage in all the bible that talks about praying in tongues is in the heart of a teaching on the superiority of prophesying to tongues, surrounded by instructions for tongue-talker to PRAY FOR INTERPRETATION.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The context of the verse in question is the meeting, and Paul says that we are to prefer prophesying to tongues. He does not limit "in the spirit" to only unknown tongues as the surrounding verses show.

Nowhere is praying in the spirit defined as "praying in tongues". Although praying in tongues is praying in the spirit, the reverse is not true.

For example: Although all genuine miracles are works of the Spirit, not all works of the Spirit are miracles. Although all prophesying is speaking in the Spirit, not all speaking in the Spirit is prophesying.

So the apostle rightly states that if he prays, sings, or speaks in tongues, then he is praying, singing, and speaking in the spirit, because all those activities are done "in the spirit". But it would be an error to say all speaking, praying, or singing in the spirit must necessarily be in tongues.

Further, "my spirit prays but my understanding is unfruitful" does not mean ALL praying in the spirit is unintelligible, otherwise it would mean all praying that is understandable is done WITHOUT THE SPIRIT, which is absurd. For if that were true, no praying would be useful or acceptable unless it was wholly in unknown tongues! What he is saying is plain: if he prays in tongues he is praying in the spirit, BUT his understanding is unfruitful.

Notice the ONLY passage in all the bible that talks about praying in tongues is in the heart of a teaching on the superiority of prophesying to tongues, surrounded by instructions for tongue-talker to PRAY FOR INTERPRETATION.

I've often wonder if the indication that Paul's, "understanding being unfruitful", meant that he couldn't understand himself... or could it mean that what he said in tongues was unfruitful for those listening?

Just thinking here... not being dogmatic or argumentative.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The context of the verse in question is the meeting, and Paul says that we are to prefer prophesying to tongues. He does not limit "in the spirit" to only unknown tongues as the surrounding verses show.

In context of what he meant in 1 Cor 14 about praying in the spirit, it was solely tongues. That same phrase is not found anywhere else. But I agree being in the spirit does not necessarily mean in tongues. But prayer in tongues in this chapter does state that.

[mfblume]

1 Corinthians 14:14-15 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. (15) What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

The context shows praying with understanding to be prayer in native language. it's a contrast from native language to tongues respectively when it says with understanding and in the spirit.

You folks are mistaking him to say it is a contrast between being in the Spirit OF GOD or in the flesh. In the spirit here is not IN THE SPIRIT OF GOD. It does not mean not in the flesh. It simply means not with understanding. MY HUMAN SPIRIT prays when I pray in tongues. It is a lower case "S" in English to indicate human spirit.

Paul said MY SPIRIT prayeth.

1Co 14:14 KJV For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mfblume

1 Corinthians 14:14-15 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. (15) What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

The context shows praying with understanding to be prayer in native language. [B]it's a contrast from native language to tongues respectively when it says with understanding and in the spirit.[/B]

You folks are mistaking him to say it is a contrast between being in the Spirit OF GOD or in the flesh. In the spirit here is not IN THE SPIRIT OF GOD. It does not mean not in the flesh. It simply means not with understanding. MY HUMAN SPIRIT prays when I pray in tongues. It is a lower case "S" in English to indicate human spirit.

Paul said MY SPIRIT prayeth.

1Co 14:14 KJV For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mfblume

1 Corinthians 14:14-15 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. (15) What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

The context shows praying with understanding to be prayer in native language. it's a contrast from native language to tongues respectively when it says with understanding and in the spirit.

You folks are mistaking him to say it is a contrast between being in the Spirit OF GOD or in the flesh. In the spirit here is not IN THE SPIRIT OF GOD. It does not mean not in the flesh. It simply means not with understanding. MY HUMAN SPIRIT prays when I pray in tongues. It is a lower case "S" in English to indicate human spirit.

Paul said MY SPIRIT prayeth.

1Co 14:14 KJV For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

It isn't strictly one's own spirit that is praying. In fact, the Holy Spirit is also interceding.

Romans 8:25-27 King James Version (KJV)
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

How is it that it is considered to be our spirit praying, yet the Holy Spirit may also make intercession through us and our prayers? We read...

1 Corinthians 6:17 English Standard Version (ESV)
17 But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.

He is truly the Vine... and we are the branches. Living extensions of Him. The Spirit prays and speaks through our spirit when tongues are taking place. This is also seen when coupled with interpretation. It is the Spirit that is speaking through His abiding presence in our spirit, our inner man. This realization broke upon me after God began using me with regards to tongues and interpretation.

That being said, even when we pray with understanding (as the Spirit leads), we are praying "in the Spirit".

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Aquila

It isn't strictly one's own spirit that is praying. In fact, the Holy Spirit is also interceding.

Romans 8:25-27 King James Version (KJV)
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

True but that was not what Paul was referring to by IN THE SPIRIT.

he was simply referring to the human spirit being in activity towards God's Spirit. You are speaking of the spirit in 1 Cor 14:14 in a context Paul was not. Which is fine and true.

How is it that it is considered to be our spirit praying, yet the Holy Spirit may also make intercession through us and our prayers? We read...

1 Corinthians 6:17 English Standard Version (ESV)
17 But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.

He is truly the Vine... and we are the branches. Living extensions of Him. The Spirit prays and speaks through our spirit when tongues are taking place. This is also seen when coupled with interpretation. It is the Spirit that is speaking through His abiding presence in our spirit, our inner man. This realization broke upon me after God began using me with regards to tongues and interpretation.

That being said, even when we pray with understanding (as the Spirit leads), we are praying "in the Spirit".

But that IN THE SPIRIT is not what Paul meant in 1 Cor 14:14. I agree we are IN THE SPIRIT when we pray in native language by knowing what to pray for an what God hears. But in the context of 1 Cor 14:14, the only reference in the bible that says PRAY IN THE SPIRIT it is not speaking about what you are speaking about. That's all that I am saying.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mfblume

True but that was not what Paul was referring to by IN THE SPIRIT.

he was simply referring to the human spirit being in activity towards God's Spirit. You are speaking of the spirit in 1 Cor 14:14 in a context Paul was not. Which is fine and true.



But that IN THE SPIRIT is not what Paul meant in 1 Cor 14:14. I agree we are IN THE SPIRIT when we pray in native language by knowing what to pray for an what God hears. But in the context of 1 Cor 14:14, the only reference in the bible that says PRAY IN THE SPIRIT it is not speaking about what you are speaking about. That's all that I am saying.

Why are you narrowing the entire question to I Corinthians 14?