Original Sin

[shazeep]

i think the argument is that it has made us sin and death centered or focused, rather than proceeding from Grace as a starting point. Note that you started and finished with sin, essentially. It frames the conversation, iow.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

This needs to be discussed. Unless a person changes the text of the KJV, original sin cannot be denied. What think all of you?

Do you believe, then, that all children who die are accursed and go to "hell"?

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Romans 5 says that one man's disobedience made many into sinners. That is essentially the doctrine of original sin in a nutshell directly from the bible.

Rom 5:18-19 KJV Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. (19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


Because Christ's righteousness is given to us all, then by the same token Adam's sin was given to us all.

Originally Posted by mfblume

1Co 15:21-22 KJV For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. (22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

There is another view that many Christians seem to ignore, that being that scripture speaking of death does not mean natural death. But separation from relationship with God.
Yes I have heard the detailed explanations of Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
When God said this that what is meant is that man would begin to die. But God did not say that he said "in the day you eat you shall die" and we know from the story that as soon as Adam and Eve ate there was a change in the way they viewed God and each other. First they realized they were naked and then they hid from God. This happened the very moment they ate the fruit.
I must ask the question, why are we so wrapped up in the natural death, and resurrection, when we should be more about the new life Christ death brought to mankind in this life?
Did not Jesus say he came to bring life and that more abundantly? Was this speaking of eternal life or this life?

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Do you believe, then, that all children who die are accursed and go to "hell"?

or perhaps some go to "purgatory!

[shazeep]

no kidding, arg

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

There is another view that many Christians seem to ignore, that being that scripture speaking of death does not mean natural death. But separation from relationship with God.
Yes I have heard the detailed explanations of Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
When God said this that what is meant is that man would begin to die. But God did not say that he said "in the day you eat you shall die" and we know from the story that as soon as Adam and Eve ate there was a change in the way they viewed God and each other. First they realized they were naked and then they hid from God. This happened the very moment they ate the fruit.
I must ask the question, why are we so wrapped up in the natural death, and resurrection, when we should be more about the new life Christ death brought to mankind in this life?
Did not Jesus say he came to bring life and that more abundantly? Was this speaking of eternal life or this life?

Amen, that is the question--good stuff, Gd. I believe when they "ate" they "died," to God--spiritually, that is; the only kind God cares about, imo.

[votivesoul]

Doesn't the doctrine of Original Sin also teach that we inherit not only a law of sin from Adam, but that we also inherit his guilt (hence infant baptism for remission of Adam's sin)?

Further, since Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2), can it not be said that the penalty for the law of sin and the supposed guilt inherited from Adam has been paid in full in the ransom provided by the Lord in the atonement?

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Doesn't the doctrine of Original Sin also teach that we inherit not only a law of sin from Adam, but that we also inherit his guilt (hence infant baptism for remission of Adam's sin)?
Further, since Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2), can it not be said that the penalty for the law of sin and the supposed guilt inherited from Adam has been paid in full in the ransom provided by the Lord in the atonement?

That's what I was trying to elicit by my questions. I don't know if "Pentecostal" original sin
is different from the catholic doctrine. Truth is, I see many Pentecostal arguments
resemble those from the daughters of the "Mother of Harlots".

My view is that although we inherit the propensity to sin (because of our free will),
infants are not born WITH sin: that was taken care of on Calvary: where forgiveness of
sins (AKA mercy) was tendered. Although the natural mind has a tendency to interchange
mercy and grace, and forgiveness and remission, they are NOT the same.

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by shazeep

no kidding, arg
Amen, that is the question--good stuff, Gd. I believe when they "ate" they "died," to God--spiritually, that is; the only kind God cares about, imo.

I must disagree! Death implies an event from which there are NO avenue or means of recovery ... PERIOD! "Spiritual" implies having a mindset towards the things of God.

If it were true that Adam "died spiritually" when God imposed the judgment of death upon his physical body (Genesis 3:19), then the question arises, Who informed Cain and Abel of the commandment to offer a sacrifice to God upon an altar for sin. There are NO scriptural texts that discloses God or any other ever making these sons of Adam aware of this requirement, therefore common logic allows one to conclude that they were instructed in it by Adam. If he were "dead spiritually" he could not have instructed them in the way of righteousness.

Furthermore, to conclude that Adam "died spiritually," which would be the same as stating that God also judged him unworthy of eternal life, serves to negate Peter's words of 2 Peter 3:9 - "The Lord is not ... willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance."

[Sean]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Doesn't the doctrine of Original Sin also teach that we inherit not only a law of sin from Adam, but that we also inherit his guilt (hence infant baptism for remission of Adam's sin)?

I just notice an infant that lies and defies before the age of 2 years old. It reminds me of an inherent sin nature that I can visibly see.

Further, since Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2), can it not be said that the penalty for the law of sin and the supposed guilt inherited from Adam has been paid in full in the ransom provided by the Lord in the atonement?

Yes, but sinners just keep on sinning. The way that folks can be included in the atonement is to repent of their sins.(which leads to the rest for us in our dispensation of PROMISE).

[Sean]

Originally Posted by thephnxman View Post
Do you believe, then, that all children who die are accursed and go to "hell"?
or perhaps some go to "purgatory!




I like this discussion!!!
Jesus said this about children(which are born under the Law).....
Matthew 19:14
14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.


And Paul said this to them......Ephesians 6
6 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.

2 Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise;

3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.



I believe that a 5 year old that dies in a car accident is saved by GRACE here, even though, because of immaturity, they are not born again and are still under the Law!!!