Original Sin

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

So God didn't know man would sin?

Of course he knew. But your question implies that KNOWING man would sin moved GOD TO CREATE MAN in a situation based upon the fact he would sin. And the bible does not teach that. Show me where God created and placed man according to foreknowledge man would sin.

Tell me this: from where or from what was this universe created? If God is eternal, and
fills eternity, where was the heavens (the universe) before being created... and where has the universe been placed? Is it somewhere in eternity?

Eternity is not a place. Do you mean timewise? The universe was made from nothing.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Of course he knew. But your question implies that KNOWING man would sin moved GOD TO CREATE MAN in a situation based upon the fact he would sin. And the bible does not teach that. Show me where God created and placed man according to foreknowledge man would sin.
Eternity is not a place. Do you mean timewise? The universe was made from nothing.

To first answer your question: on which "day" did God create man...and on which "day"
did God establish Grace? You folks must understand, that God is not reactionary: else He
could in no way be God! Either He IS God with a Perfect Plan, or not God!

"The universe was made from nothing". "...the worlds were framed by the word of God...".
Now if God fills eternity, then the universe must be in God?
"You mean time wise?" No. Eternity is timeless.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

To first answer your question: on which "day" did God create man...and on which "day"
did God establish Grace? You folks must understand, that God is not reactionary: else He
could in no way be God! Either He IS God with a Perfect Plan, or not God!

"The universe was made from nothing". "...the worlds were framed by the word of God...".
Now if God fills eternity, then the universe must be in God?

What has that got to do with God creating man in a certain situation BECAUSE he knew man would sin?

[mfblume]

God knew man would sin. Yes. But His perfect plan is not being abrogated. Man is being returned to the original position God placed Adam in before the fall. As Lafon said, it was a perfect situation without death, because God said it was VERY GOOD.

You noted that God is not reactionary. You actually contradicted your own hypothesis by saying that, though. You are claiming He would not have created man in the situation on earth that He did if He foreknew man would NOT sin. So He created by His foreknowledge of man's sin, when that cannot be the case.

God made man in the way and situation He did , and did not do so as the result of knowing man would sin. The foreknowledge of man's sin did not take God back, obviously. It did not make Him do things differently if reality was that sin would not occur and He knew it. He just had a means of restoring man perfectly back to the prefall status in which He made man.

If the absence of future sin was the reality, as we know it isn't obviously, God would not have created man in any different situation than He did. That's the only way we can define VERY GOOD and the only way to read the Word and follow God's will without adding to the word with speculation. It's Occam's Razor in full force.

We have to believe that God's situation for Adam was sub-par for us to think we are not being returned to that position. But God said it was very good. Did God resort to PLAN B because PLAN A was not good enough? If man's destiny is different from man's situation in prefall times, then there are TWO PLANS of God which implies failure on His part the first time. Or, the only other conclusion is that God is reactionary which you admit cannot be the case.

With all due respect, brother, you are insisting on your hypothesis for the sake of upholding your belief that man is not intended to live forever on this earth free of death. You should be considering the points Lafon and I pointed out with the thought of why God put man in the situation He did, and what the Word described it as, rather than focusing on retaining your current belief of man's future. Your focus is on your belief instead of the actual Word presented to us. I know you claim you got your belief from the Word, but you are not focusing solely on it in the record of Genesis 1-2 in this instance. You're remaining conscious of your need to not be wrong in your belief of man's destiny.

You still never told us where man will exist physically forever. Why is that?

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

God knew man would sin. Yes. But His perfect plan is not being abrogated. Man is being returned to the original position God placed Adam in before the fall. As Lafon said, it was a perfect situation without death, because God said it was VERY GOOD.
You noted that God is not reactionary. You actually contradicted your own hypothesis by saying that, though. You are claiming He would not have created man in the situation on earth that He did if He foreknew man would NOT sin. So He created by His foreknowledge of man's sin, when that cannot be the case.
God made man in the way and situation He did , and did not do so as the result of knowing man would sin. The foreknowledge of man's sin did not take God back, obviously. It did not make Him do things differently if reality was that sin would not occur and He knew it. He just had a means of restoring man perfectly back to the prefall status in which He made man.
If the absence of future sin was the reality, as we know it isn't obviously, God would not have created man in any different situation than He did. That's the only way we can define VERY GOOD and the only way to read the Word and follow God's will without adding to the word with speculation. It's Occam's Razor in full force.
We have to believe that God's situation for Adam was sub-par for us to think we are not being returned to that position. But God said it was very good. Did God resort to PLAN B because PLAN A was not good enough? If man's destiny is different from man's situation in prefall times, then there are TWO PLANS of God which implies failure on His part the first time. Or, the only other conclusion is that God is reactionary which you admit cannot be the case.
With all due respect, brother, you are insisting on your hypothesis for the sake of upholding your belief that man is not intended to live forever on this earth free of death. You should be considering the points Lafon and I pointed out with the thought of why God put man in the situation He did, and what the Word described it as, rather than focusing on retaining your current belief of man's future. Your focus is on your belief instead of the actual Word presented to us. I know you claim you got your belief from the Word, but you are not focusing solely on it in the record of Genesis 1-2 in this instance. You're remaining conscious of your need to not be wrong in your belief of man's destiny.
You still never told us where man will exist physically forever. Why is that?

Why you would attribute that doctrine to me, of flesh living forever in this natural earth,
I don't understand. That is the doctrine YOU espouse: man living forever in a natural earth!

As to where the Church will live forever, I have touched upon that. If you will know where
the WORD was before it was sent to the earth, then you will know where the Church will
abide: in eternity.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Why you would attribute that doctrine to me, of flesh living forever in this natural earth,
I don't understand. That is the doctrine YOU espouse: man living forever in a natural earth!

As to where the Church will live forever, I have touched upon that. If you will know where
the WORD was before it was sent to the earth, then you will know where the Church will
abide: in eternity.

Eternity is not a place, bro.

And I never attributed to you anything about man living forever in the earth. You are not reading what I am writing. Please read it again.

And neither are you answering my questions. If Adam's sin did not count as our sin, making us sinners, then Christ's righteousness is not ours. That is the real issue in this thread.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Eternity is not a place, bro.
And I never attributed to you anything about man living forever in the earth. You are not reading what I am writing. Please read it again.
And neither are you answering my questions. If Adam's sin did not count as our sin, making us sinners, then Christ's righteousness is not ours. That is the real issue in this thread.

Beloved, we do not seem to be speaking the same language. Let me see, there:
TO ME eternity is not a place, neither does it occupy a place in time, because it is
not physical (natural realm) nor is it limited to time. It does have a place in our vocabulary,
therefore we call (?) eternity "it". (I apologize for my limited vocabulary)

I believe scripture teaches that we (the Church) will not be clothed upon with this natural
bodies after the resurrection, but will inherit immortal (not natural) bodies to which Peter
and Paul alluded. Since they did not seem fit to describe those bodies (tabernacles) further,
neither will I.

As to the Church's future abode, it will be wherever the Spirit and the Word abide.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

(1) God knew man would sin. Yes. But His perfect plan is not being abrogated. Man is being returned to the original position God placed Adam in before the fall. As Lafon said, it was a perfect situation without death, because God said it was VERY GOOD.
You noted that God is not reactionary. You actually contradicted your own hypothesis by saying that, though. You are claiming He would not have created man in the situation on earth that He did if He foreknew man would NOT sin. So He created by His foreknowledge of man's sin, when that cannot be the case.
God made man in the way and situation He did , and did not do so as the result of knowing man would sin. The foreknowledge of man's sin did not take God back, obviously. It did not make Him do things differently if reality was that sin would not occur and He knew it. He just had a means of restoring man perfectly back to the prefall status in which He made man.
If the absence of future sin was the reality, as we know it isn't obviously, God would not have created man in any different situation than He did. That's the only way we can define VERY GOOD and the only way to read the Word and follow God's will without adding to the word with speculation. It's Occam's Razor in full force.
We have to believe that God's situation for Adam was sub-par for us to think we are not being returned to that position. But God said it was very good. Did God resort to PLAN B because PLAN A was not good enough? If man's destiny is different from man's situation in prefall times, then there are TWO PLANS of God which implies failure on His part the first time. Or, the only other conclusion is that God is reactionary which you admit cannot be the case.
With all due respect, brother, you are insisting on your hypothesis for the sake of upholding your belief that man is not intended to live forever on this earth free of death. You should be considering the points Lafon and I pointed out with the thought of why God put man in the situation He did, and what the Word described it as, rather than focusing on retaining your current belief of man's future. Your focus is on your belief instead of the actual Word presented to us. I know you claim you got your belief from the Word, but you are not focusing solely on it in the record of Genesis 1-2 in this instance. You're remaining conscious of your need to not be wrong in your belief of man's destiny.
(2) You still never told us where man will exist physically forever. Why is that?

Let's deal with the issues in bold before going any further, OK? Just bear with me.

(1a) How/why did God KNOW man would sin?
Now, did Adam and Eve sinned "willfully", as some denom's believe; or were they tempted?
If they sinned willfully then I would think they have no place with the Church, hence No
Church; but since there IS a Church, then Adam and Eve could not have sinned
willfully, but were tempted;
(1b Now, if they (Adam and Eve) were tempted, it is because there was one who tempted.
So Lucifer was in the garden, either shielding himself behind the serpent or he was the
very serpent, itself. In other words, iniquity was present in the garden. Now if iniquity was
in the garden, then it stands to reason that Lucifer (Satan) had already been cast out of from
God's presence (God is eternal). So now the question is: was man created AFTER iniquity
was found in Lucifer, or before? I believe that the witness is after.

(2) Man WILL NOT exist physically after the heavens (as we know them) are dissolved.
Man was created by God's Word and has God's indwelling Spirit. Therefore there is only
one place that man will abide: in God!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Let's deal with the issues in bold before going any further, OK? Just bear with me.

(1a) How/why did God KNOW man would sin?
Now, did Adam and Eve sinned "willfully", as some denom's believe; or were they tempted?
If they sinned willfully then I would think they have no place with the Church, hence No
Church; but since there IS a Church, then Adam and Eve could not have sinned
willfully, but were tempted;
(1b Now, if they (Adam and Eve) were tempted, it is because there was one who tempted.
So Lucifer was in the garden, either shielding himself behind the serpent or he was the
very serpent, itself. In other words, iniquity was present in the garden. Now if iniquity was
in the garden, then it stands to reason that Lucifer (Satan) had already been cast out of from
God's presence (God is eternal). So now the question is: was man created AFTER iniquity
was found in Lucifer, or before? I believe that the witness is after.

(2) Man WILL NOT exist physically after the heavens (as we know them) are dissolved.
Man was created by God's Word and has God's indwelling Spirit. Therefore there is only
one place that man will abide: in God!

Great points. I will get to them later tonight. Busy day!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Let's deal with the issues in bold before going any further, OK? Just bear with me.

Sure.

(1a) How/why did God KNOW man would sin?
Now, did Adam and Eve sinned "willfully", as some denom's believe; or were they tempted?
If they sinned willfully then I would think they have no place with the Church, hence No
Church; but since there IS a Church, then Adam and Eve could not have sinned
willfully, but were tempted;

Well, not totally. Eve was deceived, but Adam was not. What does that say?

1Ti 2:14 KJV And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Granted, it may simply mean that the devil knew better than to go to Adam so went to the woman. And that would mean the devil knew the woman could actually tempt him more successfully than he could as the serpent.

(1b Now, if they (Adam and Eve) were tempted, it is because there was one who tempted.

Right.

So Lucifer was in the garden, either shielding himself behind the serpent or he was the
very serpent, itself. In other words, iniquity was present in the garden. Now if iniquity was
in the garden, then it stands to reason that Lucifer (Satan) had already been cast out of from
God's presence (God is eternal).

Amen, I've always believed that.

So now the question is: was man created AFTER iniquity

Yes.

was found in Lucifer, or before? I believe that the witness is after.

I agree.

(2) Man WILL NOT exist physically after the heavens (as we know them) are dissolved.

Okay. You just made a huge unjustified leap right there. Nothing about what you said that we agree upon earlier draws this as a conclusion.

Are you are saying man will get a PHYSICAL body but it will only be temporary? I am confident the new body is physical in 1 Cor 15. So, how in the world does anything you said before this point imply man was not intended to remain physically on the earth?

Man was created by God's Word and has God's indwelling Spirit. Therefore there is only
one place that man will abide: in God!

No, man did not have the Spirit in him when he was created. I believe that would have happened had he eaten of the fruit of life. Not before.

Now, the presence of the forbidden tree lets us know there was a test, Sin was in existence. God knew the serpent would come, but he told Adam what was His will.

But none of that implies anything about whether or not God intended man to remain physical.

And nothing you stated about Man created by the Word with God's Spirit in Him does either.

Man was not created with God's Spirit.

And abiding in God is not available only if man has no physical. We're in Christ now!

So, you seem to have some HUGE gaps here over which you make huge leaps of assumption, in all due respect.

Now , I might be wrong, but your points do not prove that.