Why I am Now Convinced of a Pre-Trib Rapture

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by apostolickitty

i don't pretend to be one of those who likes to take verses, rearrange them, and make it all nice and overly complicated. I like it kind of simple, but...

I honestly could not really read much past this section because i see here that he makes mention of matthew 24:31, yet ignores half of the verse. The entirety of it reads:

Matthew 24:31 and he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Why would this guy completely ignore the part where the angels would "gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other"?

Is it because it is "immediately after the tribulation of those days"?

Bingo!!

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Originalist

i would just like him to point out the pre-trib rapture in Matthew 24.

Originalist it comes to mind that you have asked Sean this question before?

It seems that he is very reluctant to answer any questions posed to him. Well, maybe he is just reluctant to answer questions which he can't Google the answers then cut and paste them here?

I am also interested in Sean pointing out the pre-trib rapture in Matthew 24.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Bingo!!

Yes, she indeed did more than Mr Sean the Eschatology Wizard.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by ApostolicKitty

I don't pretend to be one of those who likes to take verses, rearrange them, and make it all nice and overly complicated. I like it kind of simple, but...

I honestly could not really read much past this section because I see here that he makes mention of Matthew 24:31, yet ignores half of the verse. The entirety of it reads:

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Why would this guy completely ignore the part where the angels would "gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other"?

Is it because it is "immediately after the tribulation of those days"?

Fellow saint..... Michael and I had a little debate on this following thread....http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ad.php?t=46703

You are more than welcome to review our arguments there. They cover the passage above to answer your question.

Michael believes post trib(to follow your passage's assumption and I believe pre/mid(pre or possibly mid trib.)


It will give you both points of view and may answer some questions you may have.

Sorry about this thread getting so far off course. I stuck my finger in a preterist hornets nest. I only known of about 7 or 8 of them in 35 years(out of about 10,000 or so aquaintances in my life), but they all congregate here...LOL

(Do notice, there is one of me and a bunch of them. I show them a simple truth, then they ask me pages of questions to avoid the easy to understand passage I present. It is their method of bait and switch.) All you must do is find passages that embarrass them in public and the bait and switch starts immediately, or they ask a question to answer your question....LOL

[Bowas]

Just a few scriptures that help in understanding scriptures.

Was "all the world" taxed?
Luk_2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

Was "the world turned upside down?"
Act_17:6 And when they found them not, they drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also;

Was "their faith spoken through the whole world?"
Rom_1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Did "their sound go into all the earth unto the ends of the earth?"
Rom_10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Was the end of the world upon them?
1Co_10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Was the gospel "in all the world?"
Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
Col 1:6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

Was "every nation under heaven" present on the day of Pentecost?
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Act 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

There is so much more that I found in the KJV that it can only lead to one possible conclusion. They was right and we must see/understand what they was in fact saying. Right?

(hopefully highlighting and presenting scriptures is not seen as "preterists highjacking.") lol

Originally Posted by Sean

[/U]






Did men and women throughout the earth make an idol or image of a world political leader to worship (Rev. 13:11-19)? No.
Did men and women throughout the earth receive the mark of the beast on their right hand or forehead (Rev. 13:11-19)? No.
Were men and women throughout the earth forbidden to buy or sell goods unless they had the mark of the beast on their right hand or forehead (Rev. 13:11-19)? No.
Was one-fourth of the earth’s population killed (Rev. 6:7-8)? No.
Did every mountain and island move out of its place (Rev. 6:12-17)? No.
Did men and women throughout the earth hide in caves and mountains out of sheer fright (Rev. 6:12-17)? No.
Was another one-third of the earth’s population killed (Rev. 9:15-18)? No.
Was a third of the earth burned up (Rev. 8:7)? No.
Was a third of the earth’s green grass burned up (Rev. 8:7)? No.
Were a third of the earth’s trees burned up (Rev. 8:7)? No.
Did a third of the earth’s seas become blood (Rev. 8:8-9)? No.
Did a third of the earth’s sea creatures die (Rev. 8:8-9)? No.
Were a third of the world’s ships destroyed (Rev. 8:8-9)? No.
Did a third of the earth’s rivers and lakes become bitter, causing many men to die from these waters (Rev. 8:10-11)? No.
Was a third of the earth prevented from seeing the sun, moon, and stars (Rev. 8:12)? No.
Did two Jewish witnesses, having the power to shut up the sky and to smite the earth with every plague, prophesy in Jerusalem for three and a half years (Rev. 11:3-6)? No.
Did the Antichrist double-cross and destroy Apostate Christendom (the “Harlot”) (Rev. 17:15-18)? No.
Did the Antichrist subdue three of his ten heads of state (Rev. 7:24)? No.
Was the Antichrist’s Empire judged and destroyed in one hour, causing wailing and lament among the earth’s shipmasters and merchants (Rev. 18:9-20)? No.
Did the earth’s oceans turn to blood and every living thing in the seas die (Rev. 16:3)? No.
Did the earth’s fresh water supply turn to blood (Rev. 16:4-7)? No.
Did mankind find itself scorched with fierce heat, causing men and women throughout the earth to blaspheme God (Rev. 16:8-9)? No.
Did men and women throughout the Antichrist’s Empire gnaw their tongues and blaspheme God because of intense pain (Rev. 16:10-11)? No.
Did the Euphrates River dry up, enabling the kings and armies of the East to gather in northern Israel (Rev. 16:12-16)? No.
Did a world-wide earthquake take place during which all the cities of the nations fell (Rev. 16:18-19)? No.
Did the Antichrist’s Empire break into three parts and fall into the ocean, never to be found again (Rev. 16:19; 18:21)? No.
Did Jesus Christ return bodily to the earth to the Mount of Olives (Rev. 19:11-16; Acts 1:11)? No.

[Sean]

Please notice that I offer very little commentary in the following passage. I will not try to "brainwash" you with commentaries of my beliefs, like the preterists do.......




Matthew 24
King James Version (KJV)
24 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?...3 QUESTIONS HERE





4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
This is the worldwide, end of age part.







9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. This is the dispersion of Jews part. ad70







11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. This is a warning to end time Israel, before the Tribulation.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. This is during the tribulation and its ending.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. This was a warning to be watching, particularly Israel and the saints of God in the last days of the Last days events to precede the rapture and tribulation.








NOW HERE IS HIS DISCOURSE OF THE RAPTURE...
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.



That is how ALL 3 questions are answered by the Lord. You guys blended it all together into the part of the Jews being dispersed only....This is what I call logical eschatology.(Notice, that I use very little commentary?). I showed you something easily understood, the way the gospel should be understood....simply

[Sean]

Now for Luke.....



HERE IS MY LUKE 21 OUTLINE I PROMISED....Notice, no long explanations...Just easily understood passages laid out for the simple folks to read. The kind Jesus wants to save. Even a CAVEMAN could understand it...LOL


6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

They asked Jesus ONLY about the destruction of the temple here, but Jesus gives them more info than they actually asked for, just like Matt. 24...



8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven......
Now this above is the series of General signs before His 2nd coming.



Notice now..."but (before) all these", addressing their original question...
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. At this point, Jesus is finished with the destruction of Jerusalem explanation and proceeds to speak of His 2nd coming signs...




25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. These above are the signs that Jesus wanted to point out of His 2nd coming in these end times.



29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Here, Jesus gives us a warning to watch for these signs, before His return...FOR THE WHOLE EARTH....LOOK BELOW




34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the (whole earth).

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

[Bowas]

Sean posted:
Matthew 24
King James Version (KJV)
24 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?...3 QUESTIONS HERE

A quick couple of things.
First notice the very first word in Matt 24:1. It is "And." "And" what, I ask? It is a continuation of what was happening prior to what was to follow. One cannot logically pick up a thought in midstream or midsubject and get a clear understanding as to what follows. (That is just fact and logic.)

Second. Where or what did Jesus say other than the temple would be destroyed that made the disciples think He was referring to His coming or the end of the world?
He just said the temple would be destroyed. What about the temple's destruction made them think that meant anything about His coming or the end of the world. Jesus didn't even hint about Him coming or ending the world to provoke those questions. All he said was the temple was going to be destroyed.

[Sean]

Here is a swell rapture passage. This is a continuation of the remarks of Jesus in Matt. 24(remember, it was not written with chapters or verses originally, but was a continuing dialogue).....Matt 25....

25 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

Please note that the bridegroom took the bride(5 virgins) to the consumation and the oilless virgins were left behind.
Same with Noah, He was removed and the door was SHUT by God.(for sinners to perish)
Gen 7:16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the Lord shut him in.



11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Sean

Fellow saint..... Michael and I had a little debate on this following thread....http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ad.php?t=46703

Apostolic Kitty, I encourage you and anyone else to go and read the posts of Sean. I mean, don't just breeze through them, but really thoughtfully critique them.

Originally Posted by Sean

You are more than welcome to review our arguments there. They cover the passage above to answer your question.

Michael yes, but Sean? I cannot see how he could ever be able to answer questions concerning eschatology due to his inability to do that here or anywhere else he is questioned on this issue. Yet, please don't take my word for it, but please study out Sean's posts for yourself.

Originally Posted by Sean

Michael believes post trib

Yes, and he can articulate his beliefs, and also answer questions concerning his views.

Originally Posted by Sean

(to follow your passage's assumption and I believe pre/mid(pre or possibly mid trib.)

Well, there you go boys and girls! That sure a mouthful, you see he doesn't even know what he believes? He just gave you quite a few conflicting views, but it would be interesting to see him explain them. You know come to think of it, just don't go to that one thread Sean offered, but go to the eschatology section of this forum and go through all his material.

Originally Posted by Sean

It will give you both points of view and may answer some questions you may have.

Both points of view? Are you saying the "both" points of view which you mentioned that you yourself hold to? Or are you Saying that Apostolic Kitty will see both points of view as in Pre and Post? Yet, you claim to be pre and mid? Wonder how that works Sean? Sean, would you care to give us a little insight on your pre mid rapture doctrine?

Originally Posted by Sean

Sorry about this thread getting so far off course. I stuck my finger in a preterist hornets nest.

Of course? You are being asked questions and you are dodging the questions. That is what brings a thread into a bottle neck. Sean, draw the sword of the Word and vanquish the fire breathing windmills with your knowledge eschatology.

Originally Posted by Sean

I only known of about 7 or 8 of them in 35 years(out of about 10,000 or so aquaintances in my life), but they all congregate here...LOL

Sean, 35 years? 35 years being your age? Or 35 years in the church?

Originally Posted by Sean

(Do notice, there is one of me and a bunch of them.

Do you also notice that there are no Pre/Mid Tribulation rapture believers coming over the hill to help Sean? Sometimes the person is all by himself beating the tin drum because there are those who don't want to be associated with the individual or his teachings.

Originally Posted by Sean

I show them a simple truth,

No, you don't show simple truth, just simpleness.

Originally Posted by Sean

then they ask me pages of questions to avoid the easy to understand passage I present.

Brother Blume is famous for posting pages and pages to questions of what he believes. So, why can't you answer questions? Sean, with each post you ground your credibility to dust.

Originally Posted by Sean

It is their method of bait and switch.) All you must do is find passages that embarrass them in public and the bait and switch starts immediately, or they ask a question to answer your question....LOL

Are you psychologically projecting here?

My lands Sean! That sounds like you?