Why I am Now Convinced of a Pre-Trib Rapture

[ApostolicKitty]

Originally Posted by Sean

Did you check out the debate between me and Michael?
No!
Find the grammatical errors and post them!
The subject here is PRE-TRIB rapture.
There was a debate on it, but I dont see some of you discussing that debate.

It seems you guys are more interested in keeping your "beliefs" than investigating what the 2 sides are trying to bring out.

I looked at it... and, yes, I found some errors in your writing. I don't find need or desire to go back, find them, and nitpick you to death. I think you are getting enough of that here, but I will say that your posts are not very well-organized and are sometimes a bit difficult to read. I don't find your "debate" to be very well done, partially because of how messy the posts are altogether and partially because the ideas you present are not well-strug together.

I also agree with Bowas about how important words are. They make a huge difference, as well as punctuation marks. One word out of place or missing in a legal document makes a huge difference in what you are trying to ask the court to do, how you are making a contract read, or even in how the law that applies to your situation reads. It's the same with the Bible.

That all aside, I appreciate your kind, caring spirit and attempts to help others here. Even though I think you are wrong in what you are trying to help others see, and think your debating style needs polishing, I won't sit here and mock you the way I see some others do. I don't like it. It's the one thing I find on forums and facebook that I detest most. Attack an argument -- not a person.

Anyway, you, at one point in your posts, admitted that you were "indoctrinated" with the pre-trib rapture teaching. Have you considered putting that aside, starting from the beginning with a clean slate, and studying out the issue without the study notes from others -- just you and your Bible? You mind find a new interesting perspective.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by ApostolicKitty

I looked at it... and, yes, I found some errors in your writing. I don't find need or desire to go back, find them, and nitpick you to death. I think you are getting enough of that here, but I will say that your posts are not very well-organized and are sometimes a bit difficult to read. I don't find your "debate" to be very well done, partially because of how messy the posts are altogether and partially because the ideas you present are not well-strug together.

I also agree with Bowas about how important words are. They make a huge difference, as well as punctuation marks. One word out of place or missing in a legal document makes a huge difference in what you are trying to ask the court to do, how you are making a contract read, or even in how the law that applies to your situation reads. It's the same with the Bible.

That all aside, I appreciate your kind, caring spirit and attempts to help others here. Even though I think you are wrong in what you are trying to help others see, and think your debating style needs polishing, I won't sit here and mock you the way I see some others do. I don't like it. It's the one thing I find on forums and facebook that I detest most. Attack an argument -- not a person.

Anyway, you, at one point in your posts, admitted that you were "indoctrinated" with the pre-trib rapture teaching. Have you considered putting that aside, starting from the beginning with a clean slate, and studying out the issue without the study notes from others -- just you and your Bible? You mind find a new interesting perspective.

Miss Kitty, I want to thank you for going over that thread and reviewing the posts. I tip my hat to you.

[ApostolicKitty]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Miss Kitty, I want to thank you for going over that thread and reviewing the posts. I tip my hat to you.

That's Mrs. Kitty.. but thanks.

[Originalist]

Below I have spelled it out so plainly that a child could understand it. The burden of proof here is on pre-tribbers to find any break of grammatical flow (using grammatical law) where Jesus shifts gears and starts talking about a pre-trib rapture. I have highlighted the important pronouns in red and follow them with black emboldened print in parenthesis demonstrating where the antecedents for each pronoun are located. This is an open and shut case that a pre-trib rapture is not found in Matthew 24.

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things (antecedent is the things mentioned in verses 4-6)must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these (antecedent is all predicted events in 5-7) are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then (antecedent is time mentioned in verses 5-7) shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then (antecedent is time mentioned in verses 5-7) shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then (antecedent is the time after the fulfillment of everything predicted in verses 5-12) shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore (the word therefore is key here. It is backward looking, describing everything mentioned in verses 5-14 as a consequence of what happens in verse 15. The Abomination of Desolation launches this time of sorrows mentioned in verses 5-14, also known as the Great Tribulation) shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then (antecedent is Abomination of Desolation described in verse 15) let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!(antecedent is the days following the Abomination of Desolation described in verses 5-14)

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then (antecedent is the days flowing the Abomination of Desolation described in verses 5-14) shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days (antecedent is the days following the Abomination of Desolation described in verses 5-14) should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days (antecedent is the days flowing the Abomination of Desolation described in verses 5-14) shall be shortened.

23 Then (antecedent is the days following the Abomination of Desolation described in verses 5-14) if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there (antecedent is the days following the Abomination of Desolation described in verses 5-14) shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before. (referring to verses 4-5,11)

26 Wherefore (consequence of the arising of false prophets in verses 4-5,11) if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (contrasting the lies of false Christs mentioned in verses 4-5,11)

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days (antecedent is the days following the abomination of desolation mentioned in verses 5-24) shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then (antecedent is immediately after the tribulation of those days mentioned in verse 29) shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then (antecedent is the coming of the Son of Man occurring immediately after the tribulation of those days) shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they (antecedent is the tribes of the earth) shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he (antecedent is the Son of Man) shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they (antecedent is the angels) shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it (antecedent is the coming of the Son of Man mentioned in verse 30) is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

36 But of that day and hour (antecedent is the coming of the Son of Man mentioned in verse 30) knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.(the only coming mentioned found in verse 30)

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.(verse 30)

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.(verse 30)

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.(verse 30)

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh (verse 30) shall find so doing.

47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;(the only coming mentioned found in verse 30)

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come (verse 30) in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Delow I have spelled out so plainly that a child could understand it. The burden of proof here is on pre-tribbers to find any break of grammatical flow (using grammatical law) where Jesus shifts gears and starts talking about a pre-trib rapture. I have highlighted the important pronouns in red and follow them with black emboldened print in parenthesis demonstrating where the antecedents for each pronoun are located. This is an open and shut case that a pre-trib rapture is not found in Matthew 24.

Amen. And all these things that included the temple the disciples and Jesus looked at and referred to as the antecedent came down in AD70.

Mat 24:1-2 KJV And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. (2) And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:3 KJV And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Mar 13:4 KJV Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by ApostolicKitty

I looked at it... and, yes, I found some errors in your writing. I don't find need or desire to go back, find them, and nitpick you to death. I think you are getting enough of that here, but I will say that your posts are not very well-organized and are sometimes a bit difficult to read. I don't find your "debate" to be very well done, partially because of how messy the posts are altogether and partially because the ideas you present are not well-strug together.

I also agree with Bowas about how important words are. They make a huge difference, as well as punctuation marks. One word out of place or missing in a legal document makes a huge difference in what you are trying to ask the court to do, how you are making a contract read, or even in how the law that applies to your situation reads. It's the same with the Bible.

That all aside, I appreciate your kind, caring spirit and attempts to help others here. Even though I think you are wrong in what you are trying to help others see, and think your debating style needs polishing, I won't sit here and mock you the way I see some others do. I don't like it. It's the one thing I find on forums and facebook that I detest most. Attack an argument -- not a person.

Anyway, you, at one point in your posts, admitted that you were "indoctrinated" with the pre-trib rapture teaching. Have you considered putting that aside, starting from the beginning with a clean slate, and studying out the issue without the study notes from others -- just you and your Bible? You mind find a new interesting perspective.

Thanks for your input Kitty, and it(criticism) is well taken.

I chose to debate Michael to "test" my pre trib beliefs.

I realize he is very well versed in Post Trib and what better way to test it, but to go up against the best.

I was challenged by him at times and really had to research my rebuttals.

Michael is articulate and I respect him.

Notice here, that I sent you to a debate and not just my perspective.

I want this thread to have BOTH perspectives included, not just mine.

I migrated in the debate to a slight possibility of mid trib as being the fact.(so I do bend a bit when I see interesting things as the 7 trumpets.) However, a pre-tribber would be able too see clearly my rebuttals as clear and concise. Bias has a way of clouding the mind.

Thanks again.

If you would like to see my comparison of 1 Thess. 4 and Matt. 24 just ask!

May the Lord Jesus bless you and your husband.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by ApostolicKitty

I looked at it... and, yes, I found some errors in your writing. I don't find need or desire to go back, find them, and nitpick you to death. I think you are getting enough of that here, but I will say that your posts are not very well-organized and are sometimes a bit difficult to read. I don't find your "debate" to be very well done, partially because of how messy the posts are altogether and partially because the ideas you present are not well-strug together.

I also agree with Bowas about how important words are. They make a huge difference, as well as punctuation marks. One word out of place or missing in a legal document makes a huge difference in what you are trying to ask the court to do, how you are making a contract read, or even in how the law that applies to your situation reads. It's the same with the Bible.

That all aside, I appreciate your kind, caring spirit and attempts to help others here. Even though I think you are wrong in what you are trying to help others see, and think your debating style needs polishing, I won't sit here and mock you the way I see some others do. I don't like it. It's the one thing I find on forums and facebook that I detest most. Attack an argument -- not a person.

Anyway, you, at one point in your posts, admitted that you were "indoctrinated" with the pre-trib rapture teaching. Have you considered putting that aside, starting from the beginning with a clean slate, and studying out the issue without the study notes from others -- just you and your Bible? You mind find a new interesting perspective.

I have to ditto this MRS. APOSTOLIC KITTY

Sometimes we are so busy looking at the tree, that we miss the forest... and sometimes we are so busy looking at the forest that we miss the individual tree.

Perspective is a grand thing. I love hearing both sides of a debate, and often find myself agreeing with one side, until I read the other's sides opinion. Who to believe?

Thank God Bro. Benicasa says we can be saved regardless of which side of the debate we are on

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

I have to ditto this MRS. APOSTOLIC KITTY

Sometimes we are so busy looking at the tree, that we miss the forest... and sometimes we are so busy looking at the forest that we miss the individual tree.

Perspective is a grand thing. I love hearing both sides of a debate, and often find myself agreeing with one side, until I read the other's sides opinion. Who to believe?

Thank God Bro. Benicasa says we can be saved regardless of which side of the debate we are on

Thank you