The Anti-christ IS the "restrainer"?

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Not according to the context of verse 3.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Mike,

Stay in CONTEXT. Remember the chapter numbers are inserted by men. Go back just a few verses and your eyes may be opened.

Who's revelation is being discussed from the beginning?

2 Thess 1:7-8

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Mike,

Stay in CONTEXT. Remember the chapter numbers are inserted by men. Go back just a few verses and your eyes may be opened.

Who's revelation is being discussed from the beginning?

2 Thess 1:7-8

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

When a verse is only four verses away from a specific one that is in question, we have to read the context of the immediate few verses rather than go back a chapter to find the antecedent for "he", whether chapter divisions are moot or not. In this case the context changed since chapter 1 in reference to the revealing in chapter 2. We cannot ignore immediate context.

[mfblume]

The he in verse 7 can only be the son of perdition in verse 3 since JESUS is not mentioned in antecedent manner between 3 and 7.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by mfblume

When a verse is only four verses away from a specific one that is in question, we have to read the context of the immediate few verses rather than go back a chapter to find the antecedent for "he", whether chapter divisions are moot or not. In this case the context changed since chapter 1 in reference to the revealing in chapter 2. We cannot ignore immediate context.

The context is exactly the same. The coming/revelation of Jesus of Jesus From here:

2 Thess 1:7-12

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. 11Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: 12That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

All of these verses speak of the coming/revelation of Jesus for his people.

So how is it that THE NEXT VERSE is changing the context? What is the next and following verses?

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

This IS the context. The coming of Jesus for his saints according to 2 Thess 1:7

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

The next thing that follows is simply WHEN will this coming of Jesus and our gathering to him be!

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Same thing. His coming will not take place until after the falling away and the man of sin be revealed.

AND NOW YOU KNOW WHAT WITHOLDS THAT HE (JESUS) MIGHT BE REVEALED IN HIS TIME.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

The context is exactly the same. The coming/revelation of Jesus of Jesus From here:

2 Thess 1:7-12

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. 11Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: 12That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

All of these verses speak of the coming/revelation of Jesus for his people.

So how is it that THE NEXT VERSE is changing the context? What is the next and following verses?

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

This IS the context. The coming of Jesus for his saints according to 2 Thess 1:7

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

The next thing that follows is simply WHEN will this coming of Jesus and our gathering to him be!

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Same thing.

Overall, yes. But not in this immediate, inner instance.

Again, what is there between 3 and 7 that changes the HE from son of perdition to Jesus?

Simple grammar solves the question.

[mfblume]

Using your reasoning, and I do not say this to insult you, is like this illustration revealing faulty reading:

"Tom went out to the store to pick up a loaf of bread. He drove down the road and into the parking lot where he saw a man attacking another man. The man attacking the other began pulling at the other's coat. He pulled and pulled until he took his coat off, and then drove down the road with the other's coat. When he got to the end of the street he took out the other's wallet and threw the coat away. Meanwhile Tom picked up his loaf of bread and reported the incident to the police."

In the writing I made, TOM was driving initially. But after he drove into the parking lot ANOTHER man became the subject. The man attacking someone else. And when the OTHER man who then became the subject drove away, he did something similar to what Tom did... DROVE IN A CAR. But when we read "HE" after we read of this second man becoming the subject with a car, we cannot make the mistake of thinking it is TOM just because driving a car is the same thing Tom did. Tom stopped being the subject as soon as we read about the second man attacking another. Tom is mentioned again after that insertion of an incident and once again became the subject. After TOm's name is mentioned again, and nobody else is made the subject, any time we read HE we know then that it is Tom, but not before.

THAT is the sort of context you missed in 2 Thess 2. Jesus is to be revealed and so was the son of perdition. But the subject left Jesus and became the son of perdition in 2 Thess 2:3.

Jesus can only become the antecedent to the "HE" in verse 7 after verse 3 if Jesus is actually mentioned after verse 3 and before verse 7, but that is not the case. It matters not what is written before verse 3 if the son of perdition becomes the subject in verse 3.

[mfblume]

I made the same mistake you did one time when I read Romans 9 through Romans 11. I thought Romans 11:26 spoke of Israel as the church there, as it did in Romans 9:6 - Not all Israel is Israel. But I failed to realize that would demand every reference of Israel in Romans 11 before verse 26 to refer to the church, and it simply cannot. But the subject changed in Romans 10:1.

[Esaias]

The man of sin... what are his revealed characteristics?

1. He is identified with the Son of Perdition (the phrase is used here, and as a title or designation of Judas, the apostate apostle of Christ who betrayed the Lord).

2. He opposes and exalts himself against God, and all that is called "god". Thus he acts as if he were the supreme being, in opposition to the true God as well as anything else that might be worshipped as deity.

3. He sits in the temple of God as though he was God, in God's place. God's throne is the mercy seat, thus the man of sin enthrones himself in a position on the mercy seat. Since that is in fact Christ's position as Mediator, King, and God, the man of sin replaces Christ and assumes Christ's preogatives as mediator, ruler, and God (source of redemption and salvation).

Now, according to Paul, the temple of God is the body of Christ, the church. In fact Paul in his epistles uses the word "naos" (temple) ONLY in reference to the church of God.

So the man of sin, whose arising coincides with, or at least following, the prophesied Apostasy (falling away), is a character IN THE CHURCH who usurps the place, position, prerogative, and purpose of God generally, and of Christ specifically. As God leads his people, the man of sin puts himself in that place, replacing the leading of the Spirit of God with his own leading.

As the Lord is the Mediator, the man of sin usurps that role and sets himself up as the go-between, between God and men.

As the Lord is the source and dispenser of grace, the man of sin makes himself the one who supplies grace, and apart from him grace cannot be dispensed.

As Judas, the original Son of Perdition, was an apostle, the man of sin arises from and assumes the guise of an apostle or minister of Christ. As Paul identified in 1 Cor 11, when we despise and abuse our brethren in the Supper we assume the role of Judas, and are guilty of the Body of our Lord as he was. Why? Because we abuse and betray the Body of Christ (the church), indicated by eating the bread that represents his Body in an unworthy manner. Therefore the man of sin likewise abuses the Body of Christ (the brethren).

Paul likewise warned the elders of the church at Ephesus that among the eldership would false leaders arise and would ravage the church (Acts
20:28-30). Verse 31 indicates this was a MAJOR concern of Paul's and that he ceased not for three years to warn folks of this coming apostasy and rise of Judas-elders in the church.

So it seems quite clear to me the man of sin is referring to the rise in the church of false leadership that would put itself (themselves) in God's place as the source of authority, direction, and grace (replacing the direction and leading of the Spirit with that of men who despise and ravage the flock. And like Judas, motivation is supplied in part by love of money. They are thieves with a pretense of piety.)

Historically, we find shortly after the death of Paul an apostasy in the church from apostolic truth. Trinitarianism, clericalism, catholicism, monasticism, the most aberrant doctrines imaginable begin to germinate. Along with this great falling away from truth there is the rise of the "monarchical episcopate", illustrated by Ignatius' writings where he taught that apart from the bishop (pastor) there is no church at all. Bishops replace the Spirit of God as leadership, as dispensers of grace, as mediators between God and men. They literally begin to put themselves in God's place, exalting themselves above God. This of course culminates in the Papacy, that bishop who literally claimed at one time to be "God upon earth".

Now, the bishop of Rome is not nowadays sitting in the temple of God (the RCC is not God's church). So it is error to suggest "the man of sin is the pope". But what does that leave? And what can possibly fit ALL the biblical data about this man of sin?

The answer is clericalism: the substitution of man-directed worship and man-centered leadership in place of GOD leading his church and dispensing grace to man. The priesthood of catholicism is but a symptom. The man of sin has enthroned himself IN EVERY CHURCH OF THE LORD that allows MAN to place himself in God's position, that allows humanism and human centered worship to rule, that allows men to be "the ones without whom you cannot be saved", that allows MAN to dictate that which only God in his Word and by his Spirit can properly dictate.