Original Sin

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Perhaps the horse is dead and the stick has
been worn down to a toothpick.

But nobody addressed the actual issue. I can only say those who feel Adam did not make us sinners perhaps may realize that such a belief demands salvation by works, and they have no answer. But likely they'll keep believing Adam did not make us sinners anyway. Usually works that way. Just sweep that detail of the demand to preach salvation by works under the carpet.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

But nobody addressed the actual issue. I can only say those who feel Adam did not make us sinners perhaps may realize that such a belief demands salvation by works, and they have no answer. But likely they'll keep believing Adam did not make us sinners anyway. Usually works that way. Just sweep that detail of the demand to preach salvation by works under the carpet.

OK: let's see if I understand you.

Adam sinned: and the sin was so great, it "stained" the seed (every man) in him.
Jesus was righteous: so much so that all men by Him (His seed) are righteous.
I believe that is what you say Rom 5, is saying, but please correct me.

What I see:
If we remain in Adam's (as his seed), we will do what Adam did: make ourselves
aprons to hide our sin. This also puts us outside of Christ.
If we are in Christ, we abide in righteousness by Him. Being IN Christ puts the
Church outside of Adam; and we are left only with the propensity to sin: but not
a part of Adam's sin, which was dealt with at the cross!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

OK: let's see if I understand you.

Adam sinned: and the sin was so great, it "stained" the seed (every man) in him.
Jesus was righteous: so much so that all men by Him (His seed) are righteous.
I believe that is what you say Rom 5, is saying, but please correct me.

No I am not saying that. Thanks for asking. Let me clarify.

I am saying that Adam's sin stained all mankind positionally, and without committing one single sin, we're still lost in Adam. But when we get baptized into Christ's death, we leave Adam and enter Christ and are made righteous positionally. Is not our position one of righteousness, but our behaviour might not match unless we learn and grow in grace?

What I see:
If we remain in Adam's (as his seed), we will do what Adam did: make ourselves
aprons to hide our sin. This also puts us outside of Christ.
If we are in Christ, we abide in righteousness by Him. Being IN Christ puts the
Church outside of Adam; and we are left only with the propensity to sin: but not
a part of Adam's sin, which was dealt with at the cross!

I disagree. Paul said one man's disobedience made us all sinners. It did not say it made us susceptible to the inescapable downward plunge of sin so as to render ourselves sinners by our actions. If that is the case, then the opposite would be that Christ did not make us righteous, but put an effect upon us that would cause us to be able to make ourselves righteous.

You see, that's the kicker! Christ M<ADE us righteous without us doing one thing to earn it. But you are saying we have to earn sinfulness.

Again, we have to look at it in reverse. Did Jesus make us righteous without our input, or didn't he? Was I made righteous as soon as I was saved because God gave me HIS righteousness before I had a chance to do one good deed, or not? I claim yes. THAT DEMANDS Adam made us sinners.

[mfblume]

See, brother?

Originally Posted by mfblume

No I am not saying that. Thanks for asking. Let me clarify.

I am saying that Adam's sin stained all mankind positionally, and without committing one single sin, we're still lost in Adam. But when we get baptized into Christ's death, we leave Adam and enter Christ and are made righteous positionally. Is not our position one of righteousness, but our behaviour might not match unless we learn and grow in grace?



I disagree. Paul said one man's disobedience made us all sinners. It did not say it made us susceptible to the inescapable downward plunge of sin so as to render ourselves sinners by our actions. If that is the case, then the opposite would be that Christ did not make us righteous, but put an effect upon us that would cause us to be able to make ourselves righteous.

You see, that's the kicker! Christ M<ADE us righteous without us doing one thing to earn it. But you are saying we have to earn sinfulness.

Again, we have to look at it in reverse. Did Jesus make us righteous without our input, or didn't he? Was I made righteous as soon as I was saved because God gave me HIS righteousness before I had a chance to do one good deed, or not? I claim yes. THAT DEMANDS Adam made us sinners.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

See, brother?

Beloved, I should have written "you SEEMED", and not "seem".

Nevertheless, I lost you on the "positionally". Also, I am not convinced that the
cross did not address original sin.
What happens to the children who die? If they inherited Adam's sin, then they
are condemned...only to die? Will they be justified at the Great Judgment?

Adam sinned and incurred death: and death was passed on to us...NOT
ADAM'S SIN! What it is telling us is that the Law of Sin and Death was
passed on, which is: "...the soul that sins shall die." It is only through
that Law that we are declared to be sinners; because God, in His omniscience,
KNEW that we also would sin.

As for our "position" in Christ: either we are truly saved, or not...unless I am still
misunderstanding that doctrine. Please explain.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Beloved, I should have written "you SEEMED", and not "seem".

Thanks for clarification.

Nevertheless, I lost you on the "positionally". Also, I am not convinced that the
cross did not address original sin.

Romans 5 says that death came on all men, and death is the penalty for sin. And it says that Adam's sin caused that death to come on us. So we had a penalty for sin on our lives when we did not commit the sin that deserved it. Adam did. So his ACT OF SIN put the penalty on us.

That made us sinners. "Sinners" is a positional term. We were sinners without having committed a single sin. Adam did the sin that made us sinners.

By the same token, Christ made us righteous when we were baptized into His death. Christ's death did a double whammy on the work of the devil. It not only paid the price for our sinfulness, but it also removed us from the race of Adam and put us into the new creation race of Christ. Thirdly, it also made us righteous. So, as Adam did the sin that made us sinners, Christ did the obedience that made us righteous.

The only way to really get the correct understanding is to take the opposite work of Adam that was done by Christ and see how his act made us righteous, demanding that we realize Adam's act made us sinners. Sinners are the opposite of the righteous ones.

I think we need to get that aspect first and then go forward to the implications.

What happens to the children who die? If they inherited Adam's sin, then they
are condemned...only to die? Will they be justified at the Great Judgment?

Children are born sinners. Until an age of understanding, Christ's cross covered them for righteousness' sake. They cannot agree to be baptized into His death, and Jesus said he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. So, the blood covers that.

Adam sinned and incurred death: and death was passed on to us...NOT
ADAM'S SIN!

But my point is that death is penalty for sin, and in this case, penalty for ADAM'S SIN. People suffered death due to ADAM'S SIN. Just as WE DIED with Christ so as to render His death to be ours, and were made righteous IN HIM, we SINNED WITH ADAM because we were in his loins when he sinned. As God sees it, we sinned Adam's sin by PROXY, just as we obeyed God through Christ in His obedience and are made righteous.

What it is telling us is that the Law of Sin and Death was
passed on, which is: "...the soul that sins shall die."

I do not personally believe the law of sin is "the soul that sins shall die." I believe the law of sin and death is "do good on your pwn without God's intervention by our faith, and the sin in our flesh will rise up and slay us instead."

This is the law of sin and death: Rom 7:21 KJV I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

It is only through
that Law that we are declared to be sinners; because God, in His omniscience,
KNEW that we also would sin.

I do n;t think God's omniscience had any impact whatsoever on what we would be called or what law of sin or whatever would be in effect.. THE ONLY thing the omniscience of God was involved with in action as a result was God's plan for salvation after we would sin. That's all. He did not enact creation based upon his omniscience, or anything else, except have a plan for salvation to remedy it. My opinion.

As for our "position" in Christ: either we are truly saved, or not...unless I am still
misunderstanding that doctrine. Please explain.

Right, we are either saved or not. But the position aspect is that we are positionally righteous by Christ as we were positionally sinners by Adam. We DID NOTHING to be righteous, but Christ did. WE DID NOTHING to be sinners, but Adam did.

A good saying.... Jesus did everything that made us pleasing to God. By the same token, Adam did everything to us that made God separate from us.

We were sinners before we were born, because we were in the loins of Adam when he sinned as if we personally sinned..

This law of seeing us in the loins of our forebears is demonstrated here....

Heb 7:9-10 KJV And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. (10) For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

How could Levi pay tithes to Melchisedek? When Abraham did it, Levi was in his loins, and it was like Levi doing it! THAT LAW or PRINCIPLE is the same with sin. We were in ADAM when he sinned, making us sinners as though we ate the forbidden fruit, and were "legally" condemned for that action.

Hope that helps clarify things from my perspective. Each of us are always learning...

[mfblume]

These titles should likely be dropped. "Original sin" Let's just stick to the terms Paul used. I think that is better. Paul said we were made SINNERS by Adam's act. That's fact.