My visit to a Messianic service yesterday

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

The matter is settled in Romans 11:23,



The moment "they", meaning Jews, no longer abide in unbelief, God will immediately graft them back into the vine. Jews from all time periods since the first century until now, on an individual level, have chosen to no longer abide in unbelief and committed their faith to the Son of God, Jesus of Nazareth (and not "another Jesus").

Going further into the chapter, in verse 32, the reason the blindness happened and why God gave them all up to unbelief is so He could have mercy upon all (i.e. not just some). And we know that it's according to His mercy He saves us.

And by the way, in order for "all Israel to be saved", as verse 26 reads, there has to be a true group of descended from Jacob in order to be Jews group of people who can and will be saved.

And as a matter of fact, I've met some of them.

Aaron, welcome to the discussion!

I appreciate your input, and based upon the explanation given of the selected scriptural passages, I can easily comprehend, albeit not agree, with your pov.

The unanswered question, not given but that must be the focus of Romans 11:23, is "when" will national Israel (referring strictly to the legitimate "blood-related" descendant of the Patriarchs Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob ONLY; not those of mixed heritage or Gentiles who, of their own volition have converted to Judaism), no longer "abide in unbelief," for this, or so it appears, will be the factor that determines God's grafting them back into Himself, who is the "natural" Olive Tree.

In Romans 10:1-3 Paul acknowledged that his fellow Jews possessed "a zeal of God," however recognizing that this zeal was NOT according to knowledge (attributing this, albeit not stated, of course, to the results of that judgment of "gross spiritual blindness" God imposed upon their minds because of their rebellion against His commandments which was the major contributing factor in their rejection of Christ Jesus as their promised Messiah).

As a direct result of this devastating and far-reaching judgment, the whole of the Jewish nation was rendered "ignorant" of God's righteousness, and have, since that generation, gone "about to establish their own righteousness, (and) have NOT submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God" which would save them.

Such are those Jews who have become as part of the movement commonly known as Messianic Christianity. These are, for the greater part, Jews, including those of mixed heritage and Gentiles who have converted to Judaism, are of the Trinitarian persuasion, therefore they worship "another Jesus," but NOT the One True Son of God, who is the visible manifestation of the Almighty Spirit embodied in human flesh.

A careful study of the fundamental tenets of their teachings reveals a mixture of Jewish customs which were integral parts of the Law mixed with Christian practices. However, missing are the fundementals of the "apostles doctrines" as expressed by Peter and recorded by Luke in Acts 2:38. For these reasons, among many others which neither time nor space allows me to elaborate here more fully, I feel justified in rejecting them as just another subtle effort of the enemy designed to decieve the unlearned and unstable who wrest with the scriptures to their own destruction.

Will ALL of Israel ber saved? Absolutely! But only AFTER the coming glorious appearance of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and His triumphant physical return to the land of Israel! Until then we find that the scriptures disclose that ONLY 144,000 ("natural") Jews will be "sealed in their foreheads" and become one of the "two witnesses" of Revelation 11, with their brethren remaining "spiritually blinded" until His coming!

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by Lafon

Aaron, welcome to the discussion!

I appreciate your input, and based upon the explanation given of the selected scriptural passages, I can easily comprehend, albeit not agree, with your pov.

The unanswered question, not given but that must be the focus of Romans 11:23, is "when" will national Israel (referring strictly to the legitimate "blood-related" descendant of the Patriarchs Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob ONLY; not those of mixed heritage or Gentiles who, of their own volition have converted to Judaism), no longer "abide in unbelief," for this, or so it appears, will be the factor that determines God's grafting them back into Himself, who is the "natural" Olive Tree.

In Romans 10:1-3 Paul acknowledged that his fellow Jews possessed "a zeal of God," however recognizing that this zeal was NOT according to knowledge (attributing this, albeit not stated, of course, to the results of that judgment of "gross spiritual blindness" God imposed upon their minds because of their rebellion against His commandments which was the major contributing factor in their rejection of Christ Jesus as their promised Messiah).

As a direct result of this devastating and far-reaching judgment, the whole of the Jewish nation was rendered "ignorant" of God's righteousness, and have, since that generation, gone "about to establish their own righteousness, (and) have NOT submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God" which would save them.

Such are those Jews who have become as part of the movement commonly known as Messianic Christianity. These are, for the greater part, Jews, including those of mixed heritage and Gentiles who have converted to Judaism, are of the Trinitarian persuasion, therefore they worship "another Jesus," but NOT the One True Son of God, who is the visible manifestation of the Almighty Spirit embodied in human flesh.

A careful study of the fundamental tenets of their teachings reveals a mixture of Jewish customs which were integral parts of the Law mixed with Christian practices. However, missing are the fundementals of the "apostles doctrines" as expressed by Peter and recorded by Luke in Acts 2:38. For these reasons, among many others which neither time nor space allows me to elaborate here more fully, I feel justified in rejecting them as just another subtle effort of the enemy designed to decieve the unlearned and unstable who wrest with the scriptures to their own destruction.

Will ALL of Israel ber saved? Absolutely! But only AFTER the coming glorious appearance of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and His triumphant physical return to the land of Israel! Until then we find that the scriptures disclose that ONLY 144,000 ("natural") Jews will be "sealed in their foreheads" and become one of the "two witnesses" of Revelation 11, with their brethren remaining "spiritually blinded" until His coming!

Lafon - after thinking about your pov, it sounds close to those who believe in predestination.
By this I mean your point that no "true" Jew can yet be saved. If someone who is a Jew professes a belief in Jesus, then you just say that they were not a "true" Jew.
Sounds like an easy out to justify your pov.
It also makes me uneasy, because I can see how this doctrine could come from the segment of society that hates the Jews.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Lafon

Aaron, welcome to the discussion!

I appreciate your input, and based upon the explanation given of the selected scriptural passages, I can easily comprehend, albeit not agree, with your pov.

The unanswered question, not given but that must be the focus of Romans 11:23, is "when" will national Israel (referring strictly to the legitimate "blood-related" descendant of the Patriarchs Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob ONLY; not those of mixed heritage or Gentiles who, of their own volition have converted to Judaism), no longer "abide in unbelief," for this, or so it appears, will be the factor that determines God's grafting them back into Himself, who is the "natural" Olive Tree.

In Romans 10:1-3 Paul acknowledged that his fellow Jews possessed "a zeal of God," however recognizing that this zeal was NOT according to knowledge (attributing this, albeit not stated, of course, to the results of that judgment of "gross spiritual blindness" God imposed upon their minds because of their rebellion against His commandments which was the major contributing factor in their rejection of Christ Jesus as their promised Messiah).

As a direct result of this devastating and far-reaching judgment, the whole of the Jewish nation was rendered "ignorant" of God's righteousness, and have, since that generation, gone "about to establish their own righteousness, (and) have NOT submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God" which would save them.

Such are those Jews who have become as part of the movement commonly known as Messianic Christianity. These are, for the greater part, Jews, including those of mixed heritage and Gentiles who have converted to Judaism, are of the Trinitarian persuasion, therefore they worship "another Jesus," but NOT the One True Son of God, who is the visible manifestation of the Almighty Spirit embodied in human flesh.

A careful study of the fundamental tenets of their teachings reveals a mixture of Jewish customs which were integral parts of the Law mixed with Christian practices. However, missing are the fundementals of the "apostles doctrines" as expressed by Peter and recorded by Luke in Acts 2:38. For these reasons, among many others which neither time nor space allows me to elaborate here more fully, I feel justified in rejecting them as just another subtle effort of the enemy designed to decieve the unlearned and unstable who wrest with the scriptures to their own destruction.

Will ALL of Israel ber saved? Absolutely! But only AFTER the coming glorious appearance of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and His triumphant physical return to the land of Israel! Until then we find that the scriptures disclose that ONLY 144,000 ("natural") Jews will be "sealed in their foreheads" and become one of the "two witnesses" of Revelation 11, with their brethren remaining "spiritually blinded" until His coming!

Thanks for the reply, Lafon. I hope you soul is prospering.

I would like to add the following point for consideration:

Romans 9:6-8,

6. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Galatians 4:28-31,

28. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Romans 2:28-29,

28. For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Paul seems to have made the following case:

Just because a person has in their DNA a portion of Jacob or Abraham running through them, doesn't mean they are "Israel", Biblically speaking. They must be descended from Isaac, but not literally, as in biologically, but rather spiritually, through the promise made about and to Isaac, that the whole world would be blessed through him, namely, in Christ Jesus.

So, just because a person claims Jewish descent or is an Israeli, doesn't mean they have anything in Isaac, unless they are in Christ.

They need to be children of the promise, i.e. the Holy Spirit, or else they aren't anything, in God's eyes. For example, some modern, reformed Jews are functional atheists. Their ethnic heritage doesn't mean a thing as it pertains to their spiritual heritage. They are as much heathens as any pagan gentile.

Lastly, according to Paul in Romans 2, only those who have received circumcision of the heart are "Jews". We know this circumcision is made without hands, and was called for by both Moses and Jeremiah prior to the advent of Messiah (Deuteronomy 10:16 and Jeremiah 4:4, respectively), and in short, is the only circumcision God sees and cares to see in this era of New Covenant salvation.

Therefore, on an individual level, whenever the veil is taken away (2 Corinthians 3:16) the individual Jew of ethnic descent can experience the circumcision of the heart made without hands, receive the promise of the Holy Spirit, be baptized into and so, put on Christ, and become heirs of the promise given to Abraham regarding Isaac.

And that is my point. Many untold thousands of ethnically Jewish people in the world today have received the same Holy Spirit that has sealed both you and me. Some call themselves Messianics, some something else. It doesn't matter what they are called, however. What does matter is Acts 5:30-32,

30. The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
31. Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32. And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

These ethnic Jews have believed that the God of their fathers raised Jesus from the dead, that He is exalted at the right hand, is their Prince and Savior, that God did all this to grant repentance and remission of sins to Israel, and so, because they so believe, God has given them His Spirit as witness to their faith.

Not every ethnically born Jew to believe in Jesus and receive the Holy Spirit has all their doctrinal ducks in a row. Some have embraced Trinitarian theology, some have capitulated to the law, and some have embraced whatever else that's wrong.

But the same is true of every single Christian group in the world. James wrote that "in many things we offend all". The Lord's brother was willing to admit that he and the other elders of the church in Jerusalem made mistakes (James 3:2). I am willing to admit that I don't have everything right or figured out. Some of my Biblical understanding comes up short, regardless of how I strive to understand.

But that doesn't mean I've been blinded to the Gospel or that I can't be a child of God. Neither with a person who is Jewish. As Simon Peter said under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in Acts 10:34-35: God is no respecter of persons, but is faithful to everyone in every nation, even in Israel, so long as they fear Him and work righteousness, to accept them in Christ, as it is written:

Romans 10:12-13,

12. ...there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

There is no such thing as "national Israel" according the New Covenant teachings of Messiah and His Apostles. The Israel that now is, is just a political entity like any other, made up of various ethnic and cultural heritages, some who believe in and worship Ha Shem but reject His Son, and others who do as they will.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Not every ethnically born Jew to believe in Jesus and receive the Holy Spirit has all their doctrinal ducks in a row. Some have embraced Trinitarian theology, some have capitulated to the law, and some have embraced whatever else that's wrong.

But the same is true of every single Christian group in the world. James wrote that "in many things we offend all". The Lord's brother was willing to admit that he and the other elders of the church in Jerusalem made mistakes (James 3:2). I am willing to admit that I don't have everything right or figured out. Some of my Biblical understanding comes up short, regardless of how I strive to understand.

But that doesn't mean I've been blinded to the Gospel or that I can't be a child of God. Neither with a person who is Jewish. As Simon Peter said under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in Acts 10:34-35: God is no respecter of persons, but is faithful to everyone in every nation, even in Israel, so long as they fear Him and work righteousness, to accept them in Christ, as it is written:

Romans 10:12-13,



There is no such thing as "national Israel" according the New Covenant teachings of Messiah and His Apostles. The Israel that now is, is just a political entity like any other, made up of various ethnic and cultural heritages, some who believe in and worship Ha Shem but reject His Son, and others who do as they will.

Enjoyed all of what you wrote Aaron. However... there does seem to be a blessing on those who are called Jews, and what exactly that purpose and intent is, I can't say, only the Lord can. It does say in Romans 11:29 that the gifts and calling of God is without repentance, and it was talking about the nation of Israel. I think there is a two-fold opening to the Jews, both now (since the cross), and there is an event that is coming in time for them as well.

Consider this verse in Matthew 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Many believe, because of this verse, and others... that there is coming a time when a collective remnant of Jews together will say "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord." That time, to my knowledge, has not happened yet.

At this point, we have not seen the entire nation of Israel call on the Lord, but certainly individual Jews have believed, and been filled with the spirit.