Universal Salvation

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Annihilation is much more merciful and would be the human way out, as if God is saying, "I can't fix what what I created, I have been defeated by Satan and by the all powerful will of man, so I"ll just kill them all."

Malachi 3:3, declares that He is the refiners fire and the launderers soap.

You could not be more wrong. It is exactly the opposite. When God destroys the wicked in the lake of fire he is fulfilling the very thing he designed them for.

Romans 9:17-23

17: For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18: Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19: Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20: Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21: Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22: What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

So mans will is not triumphing over the glorious will of YAH. Those who are fitted for destruction unto destruction they shall go.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

You could not be more wrong. It is exactly the opposite. When God destroys the wicked in the lake of fire he is fulfilling the very thing he designed them for.

Romans 9:17-23

17: For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18: Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19: Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20: Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21: Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22: What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

So mans will is not triumphing over the glorious will of YAH. Those who are fitted for destruction unto destruction they shall go.

You do err, not knowing the scripture, and interpreting scripture to make God to be tyrannical monster, rather than a loving Heavenly Father. Your interpretions, "maligns God's character before the world." I Cor. 13.8 "Love never fails,"

These scriptures are hyperbolic descriptions of God's purposes for men on the earth and in NO way is describing man's ultimate end.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by crakjak

You do err, not knowing the scripture, and interpreting scripture to make God to be tyrannical monster, rather than a loving Heavenly Father. Your interpretions, "maligns God's character before the world." I Cor. 13.8 "Love never fails,"

These scriptures are hyperbolic descriptions of God's purposes for men on the earth and in NO way is describing man's ultimate end.

Oh yeah?

4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. Prov. 16:4

Paul realized men do not believe its fair of God to do whatever he wills.

18: Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19: Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

How does he answer the "fairness" charge?

20: Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21: Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

By telling them it would not be fair to THE POTTER if he could not do whatever he chose with the clay that he molded!

Then he very specifically decrees that God made the wicked to demonstrate his power in their destruction:

22: What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

A humanistic worldview will indeed see this as God being in the wrong. But he counsels with no one concerning his purposes. He needs not the permission of the clay nor its approval.

He makes known the riches of his glory to the VESSELS OF MERCY WHICH HE HAD AFORE PREPARED UNTO GLORY.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Oh yeah?

4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. Prov. 16:4

Paul realized men do not believe its fair of God to do whatever he wills.

18: Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19: Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

How does he answer the "fairness" charge?

20: Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21: Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

By telling them it would not be fair to THE POTTER if he could not do whatever he chose with the clay that he molded!

Then he very specifically decrees that God made the wicked to demonstrate his power in their destruction:

22: What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

A humanistic worldview will indeed see this as God being in the wrong. But he counsels with no one concerning his purposes. He needs not the permission of the clay nor its approval.

He makes known the riches of his glory to the VESSELS OF MERCY WHICH HE HAD AFORE PREPARED UNTO GLORY.

I totally reject the Calvinistic view of God's severity. Again these verses are temporal, and in no way project the ultimate end of God's creation. God most certainly directs the affairs of man for His purpose, and His ultimate purpose is to redeem His creation.

[Coffee99]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

You could not be more wrong. It is exactly the opposite. When God destroys the wicked in the lake of fire he is fulfilling the very thing he designed them for....

Wow! Are you saying God created some just so He could have people to destroy?

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Coffee99

Wow! Are you saying God created some just so He could have people to destroy?

That is the bottom line in some traditional teaching. It is quite an extraordinary, considering what Jesus said He came to do.

(Luke 19.10;Mt.18.11; 1Jn. 3.8) "The Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil."

Quoting from Is. 61:2a:
"The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed; to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord..."(Luke 4.18)