Your tithes were already paid.

[Nitehawk013]

Maybe Bro. Blume and Benincasa legitimately are foreign to the theological extortion going on every Sunday in thousands of Apostolic churches. Perhaps they don't preach tithe as a heaven or hell issue, condemning those who do not pay up to a devil's hell. If that is the case, then I suppose they would feel that the rest of us anti-tithers are "straining at a gnat".

For those of us who see and hear it all the time though, I assure you it is a big deal.

I pay my "tithe" to my church as my Pastor preaches and expects from everyone, especially the ministry. However, I know elderly women who have had to choose between food and tithing. I know of couples who struggle every single month to pay their bills, drive cars barely staying on the road, but are so afraid of burning in hell over the stupid tithe doctrine that they would never dream of taking care of their own family needs before giving the "tithe" that they cannot afford to pay. Many of them pay the "tithe", and then have to finance monthly bills via credit cards because they don't make enough money to even break even. I have heard of local Pastors who were asked, "if you knew so and so couldn't buy groceries, would you tell them to keep the tithe instead of giving it to you, or would you at least give it back to them after they were faithful to give it"? Their response was that they would not give it back to them. God ordained tithing and that tithe belonged to them. God will take care of the person who needs groceries.

Some of you think that men like Rudy, Originalist and I (and even Sean, though his candor make shim hard to defend sometimes) are making too much of this issue. Fighting against it too hard. Well, I would say that maybe you simply don't see it in your churches and so you don't recognize the pain this pathetic, foul doctrine causes to many within the church.

Some issues will always persist. Even without tithing, some people will make ignorant financial decisions and struggle. No argument here. However, there are some that are trying to be wise and responsible and cannot afford to see 10% of their income gone every paycheck. And those people have no voice. That is garbage! Too often their only choice is to either give or be repeatedly condemned and belittled form the pulpit until they leave church altogether.

Don't believe me? That is fine. As I said, maybe you don't see it in your church(es). I have seen it and heard it though. And I assure you, seeing people leave church over something as stupid as this horrific, weak and obsolete tithing nonsense is heartbreaking.

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

Maybe Bro. Blume and Benincasa legitimately are foreign to the theological extortion going on every Sunday in thousands of Apostolic churches. Perhaps they don't preach tithe as a heaven or hell issue, condemning those who do not pay up to a devil's hell. If that is the case, then I suppose they would feel that the rest of us anti-tithers are "straining at a gnat".

For those of us who see and hear it all the time though, I assure you it is a big deal.

I pay my "tithe" to my church as my Pastor preaches and expects from everyone, especially the ministry. However, I know elderly women who have had to choose between food and tithing. I know of couples who struggle every single month to pay their bills, drive cars barely staying on the road, but are so afraid of burning in hell over the stupid tithe doctrine that they would never dream of taking care of their own family needs before giving the "tithe" that they cannot afford to pay. Many of them pay the "tithe", and then have to finance monthly bills via credit cards because they don't make enough money to even break even. I have heard of local Pastors who were asked, "if you knew so and so couldn't buy groceries, would you tell them to keep the tithe instead of giving it to you, or would you at least give it back to them after they were faithful to give it"? Their response was that they would not give it back to them. God ordained tithing and that tithe belonged to them. God will take care of the person who needs groceries.

Some of you think that men like Rudy, Originalist and I (and even Sean, though his candor make shim hard to defend sometimes) are making too much of this issue. Fighting against it too hard. Well, I would say that maybe you simply don't see it in your churches and so you don't recognize the pain this pathetic, foul doctrine causes to many within the church.

Some issues will always persist. Even without tithing, some people will make ignorant financial decisions and struggle. No argument here. However, there are some that are trying to be wise and responsible and cannot afford to see 10% of their income gone every paycheck. And those people have no voice. That is garbage! Too often their only choice is to either give or be repeatedly condemned and belittled form the pulpit until they leave church altogether.

Don't believe me? That is fine. As I said, maybe you don't see it in your church(es). I have seen it and heard it though. And I assure you, seeing people leave church over something as stupid as this horrific, weak and obsolete tithing nonsense is heartbreaking.

I think some are pushing for 15% nowadays. You're robbing God in offerings.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Rudy

I think some are pushing for 15% nowadays. You're robbing God in offerings.

Yes, we attended a large church recently that demanded 15%.

[Russ Kelly]

Yes, there are very decent tithe-teachers out there and, yes, we do not need to resort to name-calling. My problem is that they refuse to enter these dialogs and use God's Word to support post-Calvary tithing. Where is their HOLY boldness? If you cannot support, stop teaching it.

Shock, Jesus, Peter and Paul never tithed! Why not? HOLY tithes were always only food from inside God's HOLY land which God miraculously increased/ Now take that fact and provide texts to disprove it. Otherwise stop teaching tithing.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Russ Kelly

Yes, there are very decent tithe-teachers out there and, yes, we do not need to resort to name-calling. My problem is that they refuse to enter these dialogs and use God's Word to support post-Calvary tithing. Where is their HOLY boldness? If you cannot support, stop teaching it.

Shock, Jesus, Peter and Paul never tithed! Why not? HOLY tithes were always only food from inside God's HOLY land which God miraculously increased/ Now take that fact and provide texts to disprove it. Otherwise stop teaching tithing.

Here is the support. Those who give CAN GIVE ten percent if they choose. So long as they do it cheerfully and in faith, without fear of being cursed otherwise, it is JUST ANOTHER MANNER OF GIVING and God blesses. Giving more in faith causes more blessing. Give according to your faith. If some stick to ten percent, fine. It is only GIVING,m whether it is 10% or 300%. It is giving. And since the bible says GIVE, then it qualifies.

It's not rocket science.

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by Russ Kelly

Yes, there are very decent tithe-teachers out there and, yes, we do not need to resort to name-calling. My problem is that they refuse to enter these dialogs and use God's Word to support post-Calvary tithing. Where is their HOLY boldness? If you cannot support, stop teaching it.

Shock, Jesus, Peter and Paul never tithed! Why not? HOLY tithes were always only food from inside God's HOLY land which God miraculously increased/ Now take that fact and provide texts to disprove it. Otherwise stop teaching tithing.

Russ Kelly--lol.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Russ Kelly

Yes, there are very decent tithe-teachers out there and, yes, we do not need to resort to name-calling. My problem is that they refuse to enter these dialogs and use God's Word to support post-Calvary tithing. Where is their HOLY boldness? If you cannot support, stop teaching it.

Shock, Jesus, Peter and Paul never tithed! Why not? HOLY tithes were always only food from inside God's HOLY land which God miraculously increased/ Now take that fact and provide texts to disprove it. Otherwise stop teaching tithing.

If this is the same Bro. Kelly who has many you tube videos on tithing, I commend your studies and I also agree. I enjoy dialogue on the biblical accuracy of things, but the problem with many of these threads is they become mean, demeaning and sarcastic (biblical accuracy becomes a weapon).

I don't believe in mandatory tithing. I think that tithing is a good system adapted from the Old Testament. The church has grown and is more orthodox than the early church was in Jerusalem. People are responsible to the work of God in giving financial support. That is definite.

We are to be Spirit led givers. Did Jesus not command us to go beyond the laws commands? (see Mathew 5) The Spirit doesn't drive us to live minimally, but abundantly. A person should commit financially to God and tithing is a good way to do it. It should not be a legalism under the law, but a commitment to furthering the kingdom of God. The amount is not the issue it is the heart.

[Russ Kelly]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

If this is the same Bro. Kelly who has many you tube videos on tithing, I commend your studies and I also agree. I enjoy dialogue on the biblical accuracy of things, but the problem with many of these threads is they become mean, demeaning and sarcastic (biblical accuracy becomes a weapon).

I don't believe in mandatory tithing. I think that tithing is a good system adapted from the Old Testament. The church has grown and is more orthodox than the early church was in Jerusalem. People are responsible to the work of God in giving financial support. That is definite.

We are to be Spirit led givers. Did Jesus not command us to go beyond the laws commands? (see Mathew 5) The Spirit doesn't drive us to live minimally, but abundantly. A person should commit financially to God and tithing is a good way to do it. It should not be a legalism under the law, but a commitment to furthering the kingdom of God. The amount is not the issue it is the heart.

Yes, I wrote my PHD dissertation on tithing. Jesus, Moses, Nehemiah and Malachi all taught that the tithe was only food. The argument that we should give above and beyond what the law required sounds good, but it has no precedent in the law. Why? The law never required non-food producers such as carpenters or tentmakers (or even fishermen) to tithe. Again, there is no precedent to build the argument upon.

Jesus gave sacrificially; Jesus is our New Covenant example. Most church members spend more on their IPOD and Internet than they give at church. That is a shame.

[Pliny]

Originally Posted by Russ Kelly

Yes, I wrote my PHD dissertation on tithing. Jesus, Moses, Nehemiah and Malachi all taught that the tithe was only food. The argument that we should give above and beyond what the law required sounds good, but it has no precedent in the law. Why? The law never required non-food producers such as carpenters or tentmakers (or even fishermen) to tithe. Again, there is no precedent to build the argument upon.

Jesus gave sacrificially; Jesus is our New Covenant example. Most church members spend more on their IPOD and Internet than they give at church. That is a shame.

Russ,

I will not argue with you and of this turns ugly by you or anyone else I will bow out once again. You said you wrote a PhD dissertation on tithing. First congratulations! I know it is hard work! With that said I feel like I could easily write a PhD dissertation on tithing as well based on the research I have done.

You said that tithing was always food. You imply that tithing on monetary items sounds good but has no precedent. Then you ask why?

You followup with the observation that church members spend more on themselves than they do the church and that it is a shame.

I don't recall anyone here calling anyone who does not believe in tithing any names and I will not start. However, that cannot be said about the other side of this coin (pun intended). I do want to say I appreciate the post. I have no problem discussing any issue in an adult manner.

I agree with what you have said:
1) "Moses, Nehemiah and Malachi all taught that the tithe was only food".
2) The law never required non-food producers... to tithe.

I disagree with this:
There is no precedent to build the argument upon - speaking of monetary tithing I believe.

I would like to address your question if that is okay with you. You may disagree but hopefully we are not disagreeable in that disagreement.


I have studied tithing in ancient history. I do not have the ability at this time to document my assertions right now but will later if asked. I assume most of this will be familiar toy you anyway.

It seems to me that the biggest issue against tithing is the Law. Since Calvary we are not under the Law therefore tithing should not be part of the NT church. I disagree with this premise. I have asked when did tithing start? Truly there is no answer because we do not know exactly when. I have searched and have an opinion about this. If tithes predated the Law then how can the Law end something that existed previously? It seems to me that the premise is flawed.

A quick note on Abraham:
(Gen 14:20 KJV) And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

if I understood you correctly you said there is no precedent about tithing monetarily. The verse above would indicate otherwise. Tithes were given of all the spoils. This is in keeping with secular history. Most nations, if not all, tithed to their deities. The question I ask myself is why? Why is it ALWAYS 10%. Why not some other number. IMO this is indicative of a common source. I cannot prove this but do believe it. Just as I believe ancient flood stories refer to Noah's flood. These ancient civilization gave 10% of all to their deities. This included gold and silver. So there IS a precedent.

I believe Cain and Able have more to do with tithing than anything else. The LXX seems to affirm this. FTR this is an opinion. other ancient commentators seem to agree with this assessment as well. This would certainly explain why all those other cultures practiced the same thing. IMO they would have carried the practice with them after the Tower of Babel. I cannot prove this but it makes sense to me and I tend to believe it this way. That means tithing was an essential feature since the dawn of man. It would not stop at Calvary.

Concerning the question about food stuffs. There was no such thing as currency until the very end of the OT. This is why when we read about transactions we read about the weight of silver or gold - a shekels weight for example. Currency began with coins but again this was the very end of the OT. It would not make sense to have a law about something that would not exist for another thousand years or more.

This leaves a principle and whether or not we accept the principle or reject it. I accept it but have to get back to work now so hopefully this will provide enough of an answer to provide some food (pun intended) for thought.

Take Care