Your tithes were already paid.

[Sean]

Bro. Perez, you used about 200 words and I used about 14 words to explain the passage.

Think about what just happened.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by J.A. Perez

2 Corinthians 3:1-18

1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?

2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:

3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:

5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

How's this?

Aaah, now I like that!,,,You did great!

[Sean]

Originally Posted by mfblume

You teach? You have need of being taught the very basics. You don't know what a metaphor is. You don't know what a sign is. You don't understand basic English in reading passages. You think leaves form a tree keep people in heaven from dying. Yu think oneness is two persons of the godhead and one person is a man who becomes God. In short, you believe utter nonsense, and aren't able to teach anyone about anything, Sean. You're totally out of your league on this forum with just about anybody here.

Method? You cannot teach let alone use a method to do so.

Also, your contestant here needs to realize that which turns to the Lord is not Israel, but is the heart that is veiled. the previous verse stated the heart is veiled. So when we read about it turning to the Lord it's the heart. And when the heart of a single Jew turns his heart to Jesus, instead of the law, the veil is removed and the Jew sees the glory of the spiritual message from the apostles. This has nothing to do with a restoration of Israel. It has to do with a heart at any given time turinpning to the Lord.

LOL.....Let us see YOUR commentary!!!

[J.A. Perez]

Sean,
This is nothing more than a mere verse by verse commentary, with the exception of the obvious. We all us bible commentaries. please consider this commentary I have comprised. Qualifier: I am only a bible student not a theologian.

2Corinthians 3:1-18 (KJV)

1.Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?

2. Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:

3. For as much as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
Paul was saying, that these people represent what he preached in word not a Law of stone that he gave them. But it was received by the preached word of God into their hearts.

4. And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:

5. Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

6. Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
This is another confirmation of what he just said. He didn't telepathically transmit these things to them by osmosis in the Spirit, He Preached To Them.

7. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:Moses read them the Law with a veil upon his face. The glory was going to be done away from the face of moses.

8. How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?The Spirit Anointed preaching of the Word of God.

9. For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
The ministering of the Word of God is so much better than what they had Because these things were engraven in stone, But God's man Preaches What sayeth the Spirit, " He that have an ear Let him hear what the spirit sayeth unto the church."

10. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. There was a better thing coming than tablets of stone_ The Spirit Anointed Preached Word of God..

11. For if that which is done away was glorious, how much more that which remaineth is glorious.

12. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
The Apostole is saying that he has no doubt that the things he has said are greater than those Holy things once received in old time because it was done by the Spirit. Now he has no problem preaching with Great Plainness.

13. And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
Not Like Moses who had to wear a vail to convice the people the glory still remained even though it was gone.

14. But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.Now through Christ we are able to understand and hear plainly but then they could not because the veil kept them from understanding.

15. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
In these verses the vail is a blinding element upon the heart from understanding. Even today the Jew are Blind to the Spiritual truths in the Law.

16. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
when Israel (IT) turns to God the vail will be taken away and they will be restored.

17. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

18. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Sean, these versus only point out that the ministering of the Word in the spirit are superior to writing the Law on Tables of Stone. This actually is a great chapter that we look to debate the prederist. (bless their holy name) Because it states and confirms clearly that Israel will be restored. They were not cut off at 70ad permanently..

[Sean]

There goes the neighborhood, Bro. Perez....LOL

[Sean]

Originally Posted by J.A. Perez

Sean,
This is nothing more than a mere verse by verse commentary, with the exception of the obvious. We all us bible commentaries. please consider this commentary I have comprised.

2Corinthians 3:1-18 (KJV)

1.Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?

2. Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:

3. For as much as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
Paul was saying, that these people represent what he preached in word not a Law of stone that he gave them. But it was received by the preached word of God into their hearts.

4. And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:

5. Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

6. Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
This is another confirmation of what he just said. He didn't telepathically transmit these things to them by osmosis in the Spirit, He Preached To Them.

7. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:Moses read them the Law with a veil upon his face. The glory was going to be done away from the face of moses.

8. How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?The Spirit Anointed preaching of the Word of God.

9. For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
The ministering of the Word of God is so much better than what they had Because these things were engraven in stone, But God's man Preaches What sayeth the Spirit, " He that have an ear Let him hear what the spirit sayeth unto the church."

10. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. There was a better thing coming than tablets of stone_ The Spirit Anointed Preached Word of God..

11. For if that which is done away was glorious, how much more that which remaineth is glorious.

12. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
The Apostole is saying that he has no doubt that the things he has said are greater than those Holy things once received in old time because it was done by the Spirit. Now he has no problem preaching with Great Plainness.

13. And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
Not Like Moses who had to wear a vail to convice the people the glory still remained even though it was gone.

14. But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.Now through Christ we are able to understand and hear plainly but then they could not because the veil kept them from understanding.

15. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
In these verses the vail is a blinding element upon the heart from understanding. Even today the Jew are Blind to the Spiritual truths in the Law.

16. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
when Israel (IT) turns to God the vail will be taken away and they will be restored.

17. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

18. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Sean, these versus only point out that the ministering of the Word in the spirit are superior to writing the Law on Tables of Stone. This actually is a great chapter that we look to debate the prederist. (bless their holy name) Because it states and confirms clearly that Israel will be restored. They were not cut off at 70ad permanently..

Too much commentary, it DOMINATES the passage.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Pliny

I have documented this before. here we go again...

By the time of Melchizedek tithing was well established throughout the world. No one told Abraham to tithe. The question is why?

This is what I have sought to understand. I have an opinion and here it goes. Just as the many flood stories of multiple nations imply a common source I believe that the commonality of tithing among multitudes of ancient civilizations imply a common source.

The record of who and when it was established is lost due to the ravages of time. However, I believe there are hints. The Garden of Eden reveals a principle of managing something that belongs to God. The forbidden fruit. There was nothing poisonous about the fruit other than disobedience. It was good for food but it was God's portion. Adam and Eve were to cultivate it but could not partake of it. I see this same principle in tithing.

The narrative of Cain and Able is, in my opinion, about tithing. The LXX indicates that Cain had not rightly divided his offering (tithing is a division by 10). If I recall correctly the Hebrew is different from the typical offerings used elsewhere. Thus, I will not say it is a fact but I will say I lean towards this being the case.

If true it makes everything else make sense. It would mean tithing was established from the beginning and when the Tower of babel happened people took with them this custom but was applied to their deities.

Not sure if this is what you are after but there it is.

You like many others may disagree. that is your prerogative.

I have not heard any one from the other side offer any plausible explanation for this phenomenon.

Tithing was well established throughout the world by the time of Abraham? Based on what historical and Biblical evidence? Who did these people tithe to? Abraham tithed one time on items that did not belong to him and that he returned to the owners, howbeit 10% less. You are making a monstrous claim with nothing but fantasy to back it up with.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Pliny

Thank you for you OPINION.

You cannot prove tithing ceased in the NT. Should I accuse you of teaching a man-made doctrine? You have yielded ZERO proof that tithing has ceased. Should I accuse you of faulty hermeneutics as well?

Circumcision is part of the NT. It is called baptism.
(Col 2:11 KJV) In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
(Col 2:12 KJV) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Animal sacrifices have ceased because Jesus is the perfect sacrifice.

I am not obligated to prove something ceased that never actually existed to begin with. The system you refer to as "tithing" (on income) never existed in the Bible at any point in history.

[deacon blues]

Go ahead and keep what belongs to God. Will a man rob God? Yes. Some will. Render to God that which is God's.

[Sean]

Bro. Perez, the name of the game, when teaching a passage, is to back off and let it explain itself.

I can smell a skunk of a teacher, when they blast away with commentary, verse by verse.

Think about this for a minute....


Did the 1st century church have side notes and commentaries with these Epistles?

Nope.

Why do the hundreds denominations of Christianity have so much commentary?

You guessed it. To teach their opinions, along with scripture.

That is not what the Apostles did.

Their words were set in stone.

We should be VERY CAREFUL, when bombing a passage with our ideas.

With the matter of teaching the Bible, the guys with the least explaining, wins every time.