Numerical Growth Is Not A Sign Of Revival...

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

In the Great Commission, we are called to do these three things:

- Teach all nations
- Immerse the taught
- Teach them to observe everything Christ taught the Apostles

It is evident therefore that some amount of the time spent evangelizing a person includes teaching, prior to baptism. I would not want to baptize anyone if after explaining to them the Gospel and the commitment to it one needs to make, if all I got was a blank stare. I wouldn't baptize such a person until I knew they had processed the info. If they don't comprehend, you haven't taught.

Lastly, receiving the Holy Spirit is the Scriptural seal of repentance. Many get immersed and don't receive the Holy Spirit. I don't judge, but there is a possibility that their repentance wasn't accepted by the Lord (i.e. He wasn't the One granting it, they just mustered it up for whatever reason).

Therefore, only when one receives the Holy Spirit can we truly say that God has accepted their repentance and sealed them as proof.

What gets me is that we miss so much of the reasoning behind baptism. I have heard so many say show me in scripture. The problem is scripture was written 2000 years ago in a complete different society, with different understanding of things. And baptism is one of those things.

Baptism was first and foremost a ceremonial washing, representing the remission of sins. This was a Jewish custom long before the day of Pentecost. Secondly it was a public declaration of becoming a follower of one of the religious sects. Hence Johns baptism and the rebaptism of Johns disciples in Acts 19.

Baptism was not anymore salvational than our keeping or not keeping the Lords Supper on a specific day of the year or not. Or even when on receives the gift of the holy ghost. Faith in the cross is where our salvation is made.

Some will quote Peter saying "baptism doeth also now save us", But we fail to look at the like figure of Noah. Was not Noah already righteous before the flood, hence Noah was saved by the flood not to become righteous but because he was righteous. Hence Peters words, "we are baptized not to be cleansed but as our answer that we have been cleansed".
How were the children saved by the Red Sea? Were they not already the children of God, Yes, they were baptized unto Moses by the Red Sea. Just as we are baptized into Christ by baptism. Hence baptism is more our personal identification to Christ and his kingdom than anything else.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

What gets me is that we miss so much of the reasoning behind baptism. I have heard so many say show me in scripture. The problem is scripture was written 2000 years ago in a complete different society, with different understanding of things. And baptism is one of those things.

Baptism was first and foremost a ceremonial washing, representing the remission of sins. This was a Jewish custom long before the day of Pentecost. Secondly it was a public declaration of becoming a follower of one of the religious sects. Hence Johns baptism and the rebaptism of Johns disciples in Acts 19.

Baptism was not anymore salvational than our keeping or not keeping the Lords Supper on a specific day of the year or not. Or even when on receives the gift of the holy ghost. Faith in the cross is where our salvation is made.

Some will quote Peter saying "baptism doeth also now save us", But we fail to look at the like figure of Noah. Was not Noah already righteous before the flood, hence Noah was saved by the flood not to become righteous but because he was righteous. Hence Peters words, "we are baptized not to be cleansed but as our answer that we have been cleansed".
How were the children saved by the Red Sea? Were they not already the children of God, Yes, they were baptized unto Moses by the Red Sea. Just as we are baptized into Christ by baptism. Hence baptism is more our personal identification to Christ and his kingdom than anything else.

Why did Phillip baptize the Eunuch, if it was just a cultural Jewish practice? Why did Paul mention the baptism of many gentile assemblies when refuting divisions in the church? Why did Jesus get Baptized? To me it would be crazy to think that bapstism is not as essential part of our walk with God (salvation).

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Why did Phillip baptize the Eunuch, if it was just a cultural Jewish practice? Why did Paul mention the baptism of many gentile assemblies when refuting divisions in the church? Why did Jesus get Baptized? To me it would be crazy to think that bapstism is not as essential part of our walk with God (salvation).

You missed the point baptism was more than just a cultural practice, it was inclusive of several meanings to the Jew. Which is why it must or should be understood before one is baptized. And I never said Baptism was not a part of our being a follower of Christ. I said it was not the point that God see us as righteous in his eyes. Even Paul points this out in Romans 4.

[mfblume]

I think baptism is part of God seeing us righteous. Not the fact we physically did something. That's where people misunderstand baptism and think it's salvation by works. Baptism puts us into the death of Christ. That requires letting go of self. And getting into Christ is getting into righteousness.

"IN" Jesus is righteousness.

1 Corinthians 1:30 KJV But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

We're not IN Christ by our efforts when we get baptized into Him. It is OF GOD who does an operation of extracting us from Adam and putting us instead into Christ.

Colossians says the same.

Colossians 2:9-12 KJV For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. (10) And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: (11) In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Here we see placement IN CHRIST associated once again with baptism. And also the concept of God's work or operation is highlighted, not our own as if we can boast of being baptized. Anybody who boasts of baptism never grasped what it's about. Anybody who looks at it as a work is not seeing the aspect involved of putting us into Christ and His operation.

Jesus is my righteousness, not my good works. His death stands as our deaths, and anyone who also grasps that correctly enough to get saved by it understands baptism puts us into that death where self cannot work to save itself any more than the slaying of a man with all his good works makes that man great in himself in a prideful way.

Paul said he wanted to found of God by being IN CHRIST, which comes by baptism into His death, and not in his own righteousness. So, righteousness is intergrally linked to baptism if we see it puts us into His death.

Philippians 3:8-9 KJV Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, (9) And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

How do we get into Him?

Romans 6:3 KJV Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

We rise into newness of life which includes possessing HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS after we've been baptized into His death.