Numerical Growth Is Not A Sign Of Revival...

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

What gets me is that we miss so much of the reasoning behind baptism. I have heard so many say show me in scripture. The problem is scripture was written 2000 years ago in a complete different society, with different understanding of things. And baptism is one of those things.

Baptism was first and foremost a ceremonial washing, representing the remission of sins. This was a Jewish custom long before the day of Pentecost. Secondly it was a public declaration of becoming a follower of one of the religious sects. Hence Johns baptism and the rebaptism of Johns disciples in Acts 19.

Baptism was not anymore salvational than our keeping or not keeping the Lords Supper on a specific day of the year or not. Or even when on receives the gift of the holy ghost. Faith in the cross is where our salvation is made.

Some will quote Peter saying "baptism doeth also now save us", But we fail to look at the like figure of Noah. Was not Noah already righteous before the flood, hence Noah was saved by the flood not to become righteous but because he was righteous. Hence Peters words, "we are baptized not to be cleansed but as our answer that we have been cleansed".
How were the children saved by the Red Sea? Were they not already the children of God, Yes, they were baptized unto Moses by the Red Sea. Just as we are baptized into Christ by baptism. Hence baptism is more our personal identification to Christ and his kingdom than anything else.

Baptism puts us into the death of Jesus. Romans 6:3. 1 Peter 4 says that as well. Far more than ceremony.

And saying baptism saves means water rescued Noah from a sinful world while God removed it. That's a step beyond being righteous. The water saved him. How does that apply to being righteous already? Peter's point was Noah escaped that whole wicked world and that's more than being righteous while in it. The world perished. The water did something following Noah's righteous walk in the midst of that sinful world by removing him from that world.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Baptism puts us into the death of Jesus. Romans 6:3. 1 Peter 4 says that as well. Far more than ceremony.

And saying baptism saves means water rescued Noah from a sinful world while God removed it. That's a step beyond being righteous. The water saved him. How does that apply to being righteous already? Peter's point was Noah escaped that whole wicked world and that's more than being righteous while in it. The world perished. The water did something following Noah's righteous walk in the midst of that sinful world by removing him from that world.

Excellent!

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Baptism puts us into the death of Jesus. Romans 6:3. 1 Peter 4 says that as well. Far more than ceremony.

And saying baptism saves means water rescued Noah from a sinful world while God removed it. That's a step beyond being righteous. The water saved him. How does that apply to being righteous already? Peter's point was Noah escaped that whole wicked world and that's more than being righteous while in it. The world perished. The water did something following Noah's righteous walk in the midst of that sinful world by removing him from that world.

We Keep dancing around these passages, Romans 6:3, 1 Peter 3:21. Which is it? Is baptism our removal from the world of sin, or joining in the death of Christ? The question is not whether baptism also saves us, but rather in what way and from what.
It seems you teach that baptism is the point that ones sins are washed away. Yet Peter does not say that, he says it is a like figure of the flood. the answer of a clean conscience. The conscience is already clean, how is that because of faith.

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Was Abraham circumcised before God counted his righteousness unto him? No God counted Abraham as righteous before circumcision. Just as God counts us righteous before him by simple faith.

I guess what it really comes down to is what we define as salvation. You seem to define salvation as a literal point that can be plotted on a map so to speak, where others can say we saw this or that now you are saved. I on the other hand I do not count salvation by the performance of rituals, rather by the fruits rendered, "you shall know them by there fruits" "and by this shall they know you are my disciples by your love for one another".

It is not a numbers game, where we have an alter call where we count the numbers of those that came down and professed Christ, or those that received the holy ghost, or even those that got baptized. It is not for me to know at what point ones faith is recognized by God, I am not the judge.
I rest in Christ by my faith, and am complete in Christ by faith, as Paul states in Colossians 2.

Numerical growth is not a sign of revival, yet we count numbers by those that have jumped through the hoops of our particular plan of salvation, and that should not be so.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

We Keep dancing around these passages, Romans 6:3, 1 Peter 3:21. Which is it? Is baptism our removal from the world of sin, or joining in the death of Christ?

It is both. The fact is everytime you mention baptism you talk about a cleansing and never touch the issue of entrance into Christ's death. Why? Why doesn't that factor into your thoughts?

Entrance into his death occurs when we're removed from the world. It's exit from the world and entrance into the new creation race, Last man Adam.

The question is not whether baptism also saves us, but rather in what way and from what.

Exactly. HOW does baptism save from anything in your theology? I see nothing.

It seems you teach that baptism is the point that ones sins are washed away. Yet Peter does not say that,

Acts 22:16 shows us this is exactly the point quite clearly.

he says it is a like figure of the flood. the answer of a clean conscience. The conscience is already clean, how is that because of faith.

When is says LIKE FIGURE, it is not saying a like figure of the flood. This always goes back to a case of misreading. The figure was the salvation by water. The fulfillment of the figure is water baptism. Baptism is not a figure. It is what fulfills the figure.

Water saving Noah was a figure of baptism.

And the answer is like any other answer. It follows a question. What is the question?

"Christ died in your stead so you could be considered dead. What will you do about it?"

Answer----- If I am dead through Christ, then BURY ME!

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Was Abraham circumcised before God counted his righteousness unto him? No God counted Abraham as righteous before circumcision. Just as God counts us righteous before him by simple faith.

We already talked about this together.

Baptism similarly is like the CLEANSING OF THE LEPER after the leper was already healed. There is the healing of leprosy and a MUST to get the person into the Camp of Israel again was the CLEANSING.

Leviticus 14:3-4 KJV And the priest shall go forth out of the camp; and the priest shall look, and, behold, if the plague of leprosy be healed in the leper; (4) Then shall the priest command to take for him that is to be cleansed two birds alive and clean, and cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop:

Leviticus 14:6 KJV As for the living bird, he shall take it, and the cedar wood, and the scarlet, and the hyssop, and shall dip them and the living bird in the blood of the bird that was killed over the running water:

A beautiful picture of baptism. Dip the living bird into the water and blood of the slain. And then release it.

Righteousness was granted before circumcision, BUT WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN had God foreknown Abraham would refuse circumcision. It was a SEAL of righteousness. And if anyone refused circumcision they would have been BANNED outside of Israel's relationship with God. Just like the leper being healed but refusing the CLEANSING would have not been allowed back into the culture. It's so perfect. the healing is the righteousness. The cleansing is baptism. Hence, "WASHING" sins.

Was the leper cleansed after the healing or not?

Was the circumcision DEMANDED after the righteousness or not?

Was both cleanings and circumcision necessary TO ENTER THEIR WORSHIP or not?

I guess what it really comes down to is what we define as salvation. You seem to define salvation as a literal point that can be plotted on a map so to speak, where others can say we saw this or that now you are saved.

No. I read what the bible says and simply repeat it.

I on the other hand I do not count salvation by the performance of rituals, rather by the fruits rendered, "you shall know them by there fruits" "and by this shall they know you are my disciples by your love for one another".

Since you accused me of something in contrast with your position, allow me to do the same. I don[t usually do this.. But you insist.

You seem to think about the issue and reason it out and not grasp everything the bible says about it, such as baptism putting us into the death of Jesus (for yo never mention Romans 6:3 as part of your explanation, when I do everytime we talk about it). And your THINKING aside from scripture makes you think it cannot possibly be part of salvation, even though Peter says it does. And this goes back to you thinking it is salvation by works, since you do not accept the fact the works in salvation by works are earning heaven by good deeds, totally apart from demand that God's work alone saves. ...WHEREAS I get it from the Word and simply repeat it to others.

It is not a numbers game, where we have an alter call where we count the numbers of those that came down and professed Christ, or those that received the holy ghost, or even those that got baptized. It is not for me to know at what point ones faith is recognized by God, I am not the judge.

You over complicate it and remove it all from what the bible said. Peter said people must obey Acts 2:38. I simply agree, and look for it in people. And then that is only the beginning which you are not realizing I see it as that.

I rest in Christ by my faith, and am complete in Christ by faith, as Paul states in Colossians 2.

The same Paul says baptism puts us into Christ's death. And we GET INTO Christ by baptism into His death. You claim one is in Christ before baptism puts them into his death.

Numerical growth is not a sign of revival, yet we count numbers by those that have jumped through the hoops of our particular plan of salvation, and that should not be so.

I count no numbers.