A Picture of Grace from God's Point of View

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by shazeep

yes, but you are requiring your definitions there, naturally, as they are the ones provided to you, and they seem correct.

I'm merely using the generally accepted definition of the term "legalistic" (a term you threw out there, by the way) within a Christian religious context. Since we are talking Christian context, what other definition ought we to use?

"Wonderful Counselor" is disallowed as an understanding of Christ in this model;

I fail to see how? Elucidate?

and, it is assumed that all men will be judged the same way, when there is a sense in which this is not true.

How or in what way do you know this to be not true, (in a sense)?

God does not consult with OPs, nor anyone else, in judging a man or a matter.

He seemed to consult with Abraham regarding Sodom and Gomorrah, and was willing to take counsel from him regarding what He should or shouldn't do to those cities.

We can find Scripture to condemn Job, or even Solomon, so using the Bible in this way is not only demonstrably arbitrary, but a sign.

Is Scripture then un-usable? What purpose does it serve?

Muslims are required to emulate Christ, not just talk about Him as in our religion.

In what way can a Muslim emulate the Son of God when he or she denies Him? How does that work? Do as I do, but not as I say?

The only Muslims going around talking about how others are lost are the radical, fake ones.

And you know this how? How do you judge the merits or authenticity of who is and who is not a legitimate Muslim? The Qu'ran? What is the basis upon which one can determine who is the real deal versus who is not, in Islam?

It would be a strange Christian indeed that refrained from legalistic verbal declarations about Christ, and requiring them as proof of "salvation," which is in fact what we are taught to do, whether that is what you might want to admit or not;

Is there no basic confession of Christian faith necessary? It's all in how one acts and behaves, inward convictions of what is and is not true, be damned?

a "Christian" conversation might easily go
"Are they saved?"
"Yes, they accepted Jesus and spoke in tongues on such-and-such a date."
"Oh, okay then."

No man can call Jesus "Lord" except through the Holy Spirit, and no one is going to experience Holy Spirit glossalalia without first having received the Holy Spirit. So, speaking in tongues is one way to certify that a person has received Jesus as Lord at some point in life. God only gives the Holy Spirit to them who obey Him (Acts 5:32). Or was Simon Peter wrong, or is the transmission of the Acts of the Apostles in error?

And i can tell you with confidence that if you are in this church, you should run, as fast as you can. Does this mean that they are all "lost?" Of course not; just like anyone, any Muslim, they may choose a different understanding from that of the herd they are in; they will be the quiet ones.

The tone here suggests a begrudgement. Why so callously dismiss people like this?

So hold to your convictions--about other people, lol--for as long as you like. "Prove" them with some convenient Scripture, should you be so inclined, ignoring other Scripture that gives a more complete understanding.

This is rather judgmental, shazeep. You are making some assumptions for which you offer no proof. Further, what you are intimating is nothing less than a Bible-less Christianity, in which no one anywhere, ever, has to submit himself or herself to any form of inspection according to the Holy Scriptures.

There is then, no way for anyone to protect themselves from wolves in sheep's clothing. We must merely accept all upon no actual basis, since we might somehow be "ignoring other Scripture that [would give] a more complete understanding".

Lots of people do. But people also change--and if they are truly changing their minds, they cannot help it; you will not be unaffected from now on whenever you hear someone declare their "bona-fides," or repeat someone else's, as a reply to "are you saved." You might stuff it, true, but it will be there.

Anyone who tells you that you are saved or that they are saved is lying to you, and contravening Scripture. He who holds out to the end is saved.

Anyone who has had a bona-fide, saving encounter with the risen Lord, Jesus of Nazareth, will be changed, and that change will cause him or her to swear allegiance to Him, by default. Or else Jesus isn't who He claimed to be and He doesn't have the power to save anyone.