A Picture of Grace from God's Point of View

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

Imo Christ works better, and He is a Spirit, that Jesus manifested. Did Christ go to prepare a place for us, Christians? Yes--but there were already many rooms in God's house. If not, He would have told us. We likely understand the dynamic much too literally; if my Muslim neighbor exhibits the fruit of the Spirit, especially toward me, then what matter if our words are not the exact same? Any spirit that admits that Christ has come in the flesh is from God.

Yeah, what matters if Muslims don't believe the cross even occurred?

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Yeah, what matters if Muslims don't believe the cross even occurred?

well, that is between them and God, not them and you. This is just seeking points of division, when there is much you could seek to agree on. Any spirit that admits Christ has come in the flesh is from God, so you are likely fighting God as well. So they don't agree with your legal understanding of the cross, that most Christians make a hypocrisy of, so what? It is you that will be held to the higher standard, if you have found some better knowledge.

[houston]

Originally Posted by shazeep

well, that is between them and God, not them and you. This is just seeking points of division, when there is much you could seek to agree on. Any spirit that admits Christ has come in the flesh is from God, so you are likely fighting God as well. So they don't agree with your legal understanding of the cross, that most Christians make a hypocrisy of, so what? It is you that will be held to the higher standard, if you have found some better knowledge.

Are you kidding me? John was addressing Docetism. He wasn't saying "acknowledge that Jesus existed as a man." But, everything that Jesus is (Son of God, Messiah, etc) came in the flesh. Everything that Muslims deny.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by houston

Are you kidding me? John was addressing Docetism. He wasn't saying "acknowledge that Jesus existed as a man." But, everything that Jesus is (Son of God, Messiah, etc) came in the flesh. Everything that Muslims deny.

well, the Qur'an does not deny it, and i would suspect that any Muslims denying Christ are essentially getting swept up in a semantics argument, but i am just guessing. Kind of strange to me that i have never gone down this road with any Muslims, as i have had plenty of spiritual discussions with them.

But again i am not here addressing any Muslims, nor am i here to apologize for them, suggesting hard to understand ways how they might actually be "saved" by understanding Christ as a Spirit; i am here addressing people who profess to follow Christ, and are seeking Grace, but insist that they can legally determine where someone else's heart is all while carrying their cross, and being like little children.

If you find someone's stated beliefs to be a reliable guide to the state of their salvation, just like with a professed Christian, then see that that is just the other side of a coin; we witness plenty of people who would profess this belief in Jesus that you hold dear, but don't evince a walk with Christ; so it should be no big surprise that a race risen to contest with us might not agree with our religious semantics.

The point here though is how will they be judged by God? I'm not disagreeing that the Romans passage or any of the Pauline passages are true, mind you, but that we would be enforcing our beliefs upon someone from another culture, when it doesn't work so great even within our culture, and that God, being their father, has apparently seen fit to include "follow Christ" in their Book, and will surely judge them by their own standards and beliefs.

So say what you will say here, but note where you are, and who is reading--no Muslims are going to be helped nor harmed here. This is about a Christian mindset, even if it is the one provided us by the state. You will get a chance to defend "All Muslims are lost," if that is what you profess, and i never meant to claim that i know, just that there is plenty of Scripture to suggest otherwise, and as Mike and i have demonstrated, our standards for salvation are pretty arbitrary, even to other Christians.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

well, that is between them and God, not them and you.

I never said it was between them and me. And the bible informed us of those fates where denial of the cross is involved. It's just relaying what the bible says. And no, I am not relating what I think people should believe about it. The statements are plainly there for all to read.

This is just seeking points of division,

Nope. Just relating what the bible emphasizes.

when there is much you could seek to agree on.

That is a ridiculous way of thinking, when the bible simply states the cross is vital for salvation.

Any spirit that admits Christ has come in the flesh is from God, so you are likely fighting God as well.

Sorry, you believe the bible is full of contradictions and deny many of Paul's statements. I disregard ideas from those who hold such concepts seeing as they are the true contradictions.

So they don't agree with your legal understanding of the cross, that most Christians make a hypocrisy of, so what? It is you that will be held to the higher standard, if you have found some better knowledge.

Bible is all we need, and it contains the teaching we require for salvation, and that includes the work of the cross of Christ.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Bible is all we need, and it contains the teaching we require for salvation, and that includes the work of the cross of Christ.

see, i don't see "Muslims" in that statement anywhere

but i do see Judge not, lest you be judged.
and forgive, and you will be forgiven.

So really i am just suggesting that one pick up their cross, since we have plenty of people talking about it already.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

see, i don't see "Muslims" in that statement anywhere

but i do see Judge not, lest you be judged.
and forgive, and you will be forgiven.

You fail to read all of what Jesus said about judge in Matt 7.

And you forget repeating what the bible says is letting God judge, not us judging anything.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

You fail to read all of what Jesus said about judge in Matt 7.

And you forget repeating what the bible says is letting God judge, not us judging anything.

So you say; yet Christ made it plain that He did not come to judge.

Mike, it has become plain to me that you really don't know Christ at all; can i lead you to Him?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by shazeep

So you say; yet Christ made it plain that He did not come to judge.

Mike, it has become plain to me that you really don't know Christ at all; can i lead you to Him?

Brother Blume, please consider the source.

You are dealing with a Troll.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by shazeep

So you say; yet Christ made it plain that He did not come to judge.

Mike, it has become plain to me that you really don't know Christ at all; can i lead you to Him?

Lo! He is here. Lo! He is there.

If any should say this to you, believe them not.

shazeep, you have a funny way of speaking for God, knowing how He will judge and mete out eternal justice, but then tell us we haven't the right to know who is saved or lost, according to the Final Judgment at the Throne of Christ.

You are effectively making yourself out to be a prophet with special insight and knowledge of the Holy One.

And yet, how little of the Holy One's Eternal Word you use.

A few verses here and there, "judge not", "forgive and be forgiven", "become like little children", "know them by their fruits", and etc. do not paint the entire picture of the Christian faith.

You who openly admits to failing all of God's commands on a regular basis and then assume to tell others how to know and perceive Christ?

Romans 2:21-24,

21. Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22. Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege
23. Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24. For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

You're preaching how we should not do this or that, yet plainly tell us you fail God in all of His commandments on a regular basis, thereby declaring you are guilty of the very things you tell us not to be doing.

And such actions are, according to Holy Scripture, hypocritical.

You're so bent on getting the alleged beam out of our eyes, and yet have you not considered the beam that is in your own eye?

Muslims will be judged based on what they know of Christ as Spirit? What Angel of Light told you that one?

Who in this world is able to bypass the cross, circumvent the Gospel, and still find saving eternal grace in the eyes of God? Christ tasted death for everyone, so that THROUGH HIM all men and women might be saved.

God chooses the foolishness of preaching to save. How shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall a preacher preach, lest he be sent? And how shall the preacher be sent, lest he is willing to go? And how can the preacher even dream of going if all he can say to the Muslim is "I don't know if your saved or lost; God will judge you according to what you know about Jesus (Isa), according to the Qu'ran".

That's not a gospel. That's a "meh", you're on your own, kid. There is no love in your message at all.

The salvation of the world has been entrusted to the Church. We are the Body of Messiah, His active, acting agent and representative to all, in every tribe, tongue, and nation. There is no salvation outside of the Body of Christ. This Body alone is the temple of God through the Spirit. Whosoever sins we retain, they are retained.

We pray people in Christ's stead to be reconciled to God. No one accidentally fell backwards into the Kingdom of God one day, all on their own. This holy nation of royal priests has a job to do and a commission to do it.

You're so wary of saying "All ______ are lost". You don't want anyone to fill in the blank. Well here I go, filling in the blank:

ALL UNREGENERATE SINNERS ARE LOST.

If not, then someone somewhere out there didn't come short of the glory of God, and will make it just fine on their own. The blood of Jesus? No thanks, I've got enough light to make it to heaven all by myself.

How absurd! Get real. Get your head out of the clouds of your own making, and find a place of repentance if God will grant you one, and sacrifice this nonsense right out of you. Seriously.