A Picture of Grace from God's Point of View

[shazeep]

I fear you've taken the "judge not, condemn not" rule in the Gospels as an indication that you are not to render any discernment whatsoever about anyone.

how does one become like a little child, if not perceiving everyone as their "betters," and not choosing too high a chair to sit in? How might a doctorate in theology interfere with this? Surely the Romans quote is truth; but it is the truth you have chosen to quote, and you will be held to this, a higher standard; not the Muslim, whom you are approaching with the doctorate, not the little child.

[houston]

Originally Posted by shazeep

amen. so then, how do you judge if someone is saved or not?

By their fruit.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by houston

By their fruit.

hope i can say the same

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Sorry not a good example of the subject at hand, the tares were not converts, they were sown by the enemy. And yet Christ words to his disciples was, "leave them be".

As for the "How does one reprove, rebuke, and exhort with all long-suffering and doctrine if one doesn't use the Holy Scriptures to do it?" One must determine what Paul was referring to and to whom.

First Paul was referring to those that were saved, or claimed salvation. So we can leave off the "if they were saved". Secondly Christ gave us one/two commandments, "love God and love your neighbor as yourself". Not some unattainable list of do's and don't found in most Christian denominations. Which I might add is what most use to judge by, not the commandments of Christ.

Originally Posted by Esaias

Which commandment of God is unattainable? That is, which of Gods commandments are impossible to obey?

Originally Posted by shazeep

i would say that we have all failed, at all of them. At least i think i have broken every one

What commandments would you be referring to beyond "love God and love your neighbor as yourself". All others are man made laws based on mans review of scripture.

Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Peter speaks of laws handed down by God at Mt Sinai, yet Christ handed down a new set of laws, love God, and love your neighbor as yourself". By the time of Christ even these laws of God handed down through Moses had been so defined and twisted they had lost the whole spirit of the law. That Christ reprimanded them, telling them that they shut up the kingdom by their laws.

We have done that very same thing today, dissected the new testament, placing laws or commandments upon God's children that God did not command.

Even Paul gave leeway for differing views of following Christ in Romans 14.

Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

And even Paul condemns judging one another based on our personal view of scripture.

Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

[votivesoul]

shazeep,

First, thanks for taking the time to respond.

Second, instead of just volleying the ball back and forth, let just say this:

It seems to me that what you believe and advocate makes fulfilling the Great Commission an impossibility.

If thinking in any way that anyone anywhere might be lost in order to share the Gospel with them means attempting to remove splinters from the eye and judging another man's servant, then by no means can anyone ever hope to share the Gospel with anyone that they might be saved, lest they risk being judged with the judgment they mete out.

You have turned what is a simple but profound mission of the Church into a conundrum that keeps the Church from ever succeeding in what Christ gave her to do.

In the Gospels, Jesus knew who was and who was not lost. Can He not still commit that understanding to His people, so that we, as His people, can walk in that understanding in order to approach people with the Gospel?

You would have us only ever apply Scripture to ourselves, so that in the end, we may hope to be the only ones who make it out alive (as it were). In an effort to try and not judge anyone by any Scriptural rubric but by their "fruit", you would cause the Body of Messiah to leave off the love of the truth in admitting that there are those who God has saved and those who have not been saved.

You would have us let people go off to their eternal judgment with God based on our own perception of their "fruit". Essentially, you're more than happy letting people fall into the hands of God, who will but judge all in true holiness and righteousness, and so, consign many to the flames of eternal death.

If we are so un-equipped to judge a person saved or lost, HOW IN THE WORLD CAN WE HOPE TO JUDGE SOMEONE'S "FRUIT"?

Do you not realize that in judging someone's "fruit" as either acceptable or not, we are in turn judging whether someone is "saved" or "lost", by the very rubric you deem best?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

What commandments would you be referring to beyond "love God and love your neighbor as yourself". All others are man made laws based on mans review of scripture.

Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Peter speaks of laws handed down by God at Mt Sinai, yet Christ handed down a new set of laws, love God, and love your neighbor as yourself". By the time of Christ even these laws of God handed down through Moses had been so defined and twisted they had lost the whole spirit of the law. That Christ reprimanded them, telling them that they shut up the kingdom by their laws.

We have done that very same thing today, dissected the new testament, placing laws or commandments upon God's children that God did not command.

Even Paul gave leeway for differing views of following Christ in Romans 14.

Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

And even Paul condemns judging one another based on our personal view of scripture.

Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

So as long as we love God and our neighbor we can bow down to idols?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

So as long as we love God and our neighbor we can bow down to idols?

That's what people seem to miss. If what they teach today was applicable back during the time of the apostles, then Acts 15 wouldn't of been an argument. They would of never sent the letter to Antioch for the Greeks to stop pagan practices. All they would've needed was to accept Jesus as their personal savior and hold business as usual.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

It seems to me that what you believe and advocate makes fulfilling the Great Commission an impossibility.

i would say that one should fulfill the GC in their walk, by showing, and not by assuming the position of teacher, lecturing.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

If thinking in any way that anyone anywhere might be lost in order to share the Gospel with them means attempting to remove splinters from the eye and judging another man's servant, then by no means can anyone ever hope to share the Gospel with anyone that they might be saved, lest they risk being judged with the judgment they mete out.

amen. Since when did "share the Gospel with them" include "judgment they mete out?" Also, we do not live in the time when no one had heard of Christ; have you ever met anyone who has never heard of Christ? Surely there are still occasions when a lecture or monologue might seem appropriate; but going by the fruit, i would strictly avoid them
i mean, when i'm asked, i tell, but if one is not different enough to be asked, then what really do they have to tell? How do you "teach" as a little child? For sure no judgement is meted out.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

You have turned what is a simple but profound mission of the Church into a conundrum that keeps the Church from ever succeeding in what Christ gave her to do.

well, i would suggest that we have turned "church" into a religious meeting that has practically nothing to do with Christ anyway, and if your "church" teaches that "All _______ are lost," or any version of "us 4 and no more," then what is currently happening to our "churches" is no surprise, and overdue.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

In the Gospels, Jesus knew who was and who was not lost. Can He not still commit that understanding to His people, so that we, as His people, can walk in that understanding in order to approach people with the Gospel?

I would say sure He can, and His people do; the path is clear, but no one takes it. The few who do are not in church. Understand that the Apostles we seek to follow left their lives entirely to follow Christ. They lived at church, and had no where else to go. Church was wherever they were, and "love one another" was "sufficient for them." They did not even have the NT to condemn others with yet.

And now we, who do, confidently describe most others as "lost" with it, while proclaiming that we can have someone "saved" by kickoff time. Why teach what you do not know? You might try, and you might even get some of it right, and not be technically lying, but if you are even naively missing the point, and putting yourself in the role of "better" to people, you risk being seen as a hypocrite, and what good are you doing the kingdom then?

Originally Posted by votivesoul

You would have us only ever apply Scripture to ourselves, so that in the end, we may hope to be the only ones who make it out alive (as it were). In an effort to try and not judge anyone by any Scriptural rubric but by their "fruit", you would cause the Body of Messiah to leave off the love of the truth in admitting that there are those who God has saved and those who have not been saved.

why are you looking to judge the state of others' salvation anyway? Don't worry, you don't know anyone who is saved, and i don't either If you hold out to the end, you will be saved." Of course this does not make much sense to us, who live in luxury at the expense of others; what am i "holding out" from?

Originally Posted by votivesoul

You would have us let people go off to their eternal judgment with God based on our own perception of their "fruit". Essentially, you're more than happy letting people fall into the hands of God, who will but judge all in true holiness and righteousness, and so, consign many to the flames of eternal death.

you say that, yet i am here doing my best to pull you from the fire how does it feel? Seek your own salvation is even negated here, if you are required to find my salvation. Are you seeking others who verbally agree with your beliefs, and are willing to sign a contract, or people who deny themselves and exhibit the gifts of the Spirit?

Originally Posted by votivesoul

If we are so un-equipped to judge a person saved or lost, HOW IN THE WORLD CAN WE HOPE TO JUDGE SOMEONE'S "FRUIT"?

Do you not realize that in judging someone's "fruit" as either acceptable or not, we are in turn judging whether someone is "saved" or "lost", by the very rubric you deem best?

for you, perhaps. i don't attempt to judge whether people are saved or lost anymore. Fruit requires no judgement, and btw i did not make up to judge by the fruit, that was Christ. Fruit does not lie.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

Imo Christ works better, and He is a Spirit, that Jesus manifested. Did Christ go to prepare a place for us, Christians? Yes--but there were already many rooms in God's house. If not, He would have told us. We likely understand the dynamic much too literally; if my Muslim neighbor exhibits the fruit of the Spirit, especially toward me, then what matter if our words are not the exact same? Any spirit that admits that Christ has come in the flesh is from God.

Yeah, what matters if Muslims don't believe the cross even occurred?

[mfblume]

It's not a matter of anyone saying people are lost in some arrogant manner, but simply believing the bible for what it says. And to believe one needn't even believe the cross took place and maintain a possibility such an one is saved is not believing the bible, period. You're in the wrong book with that concept. Words have lost all meaning.