A Picture of Grace from God's Point of View

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by mfblume

It's not a matter of anyone saying people are lost in some arrogant manner, but simply believing the bible for what it says. And to believe one needn't even believe the cross took place and maintain a possibility such an one is saved is not believing the bible, period. You're in the wrong book with that concept. Words have lost all meaning.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Yeah, what matters if Muslims don't believe the cross even occurred?

well, that is between them and God, not them and you. This is just seeking points of division, when there is much you could seek to agree on. Any spirit that admits Christ has come in the flesh is from God, so you are likely fighting God as well. So they don't agree with your legal understanding of the cross, that most Christians make a hypocrisy of, so what? It is you that will be held to the higher standard, if you have found some better knowledge.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

It's not a matter of anyone saying people are lost in some arrogant manner, but simply believing the bible for what it says. And to believe one needn't even believe the cross took place and maintain a possibility such an one is saved is not believing the bible, period. You're in the wrong book with that concept. Words have lost all meaning.

well, this is your opinion, but you stumble at other Scripture in order to make it true. We don't really have a very good grasp of "saved" or "lost" anyway, do we, if we confidently assure people of their salvation after ten minutes at the altar, as long as they adopt our lexicon.

If you want to simply believe what the Bible says, why evince shock and dismay at Scripture that is more profound, and inclusive, than your later Pauline quotes? This "simply believe what the Bible says" always means "let me interpret the Bible for you," as we all see that the Bible is not as definitive as many might have it be; it is meant to divide. When i hear some neo say that the Bible has no contradictions, i just laugh, quietly. It is a Book of contradictions. I could show that you are lost the same way, which would only reveal the state of my heart, not yours.

Also please note that i never said anyone was saved, either. What i said was that anyone who believes that they can disqualify anyone else from salvation based upon their stated beliefs has fallen into a trap, and revealed their heart. Their little child has gone missing.

[shazeep]

Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

see, no witnessing, proselytizing, converting, confessing, baptizing, tongueing, or tithing required. People make those requirements, not Scripture.

[houston]

Originally Posted by shazeep

well, that is between them and God, not them and you. This is just seeking points of division, when there is much you could seek to agree on. Any spirit that admits Christ has come in the flesh is from God, so you are likely fighting God as well. So they don't agree with your legal understanding of the cross, that most Christians make a hypocrisy of, so what? It is you that will be held to the higher standard, if you have found some better knowledge.

Are you kidding me? John was addressing Docetism. He wasn't saying "acknowledge that Jesus existed as a man." But, everything that Jesus is (Son of God, Messiah, etc) came in the flesh. Everything that Muslims deny.

[houston]

Originally Posted by shazeep

Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

see, no witnessing, proselytizing, converting, confessing, baptizing, tongueing, or tithing required. People make those requirements, not Scripture.

"Go ye therefore..."

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

well, this is your opinion, but you stumble at other Scripture in order to make it true.

Not true.

We don't really have a very good grasp of "saved" or "lost" anyway, do we, if we confidently assure people of their salvation after ten minutes at the altar, as long as they adopt our lexicon.

This was debunked weeks ago. Again, for the umpteenth time, one is only informed salvation is sure if the cross is applied to our lives and our hearts genuinely believe, despite what one may say. IT's the heart God sees and that's what people are informed about.

If you want to simply believe what the Bible says, why evince shock and dismay at Scripture that is more profound, and inclusive, than your later Pauline quotes?

Pauline quotes are part of the bible and none of them conflict with anything else the bible says.

This "simply believe what the Bible says" always means "let me interpret the Bible for you,"

Wrong.

as we all see that the Bible is not as definitive as many might have it be; it is meant to divide.

When it makes plain statements, those statements must be maintained.

When i hear some neo say that the Bible has no contradictions, i just laugh, quietly. It is a Book of contradictions.

That's what is said by folks who don't like parts of the bible.

I could show that you are lost the same way, which would only reveal the state of my heart, not yours.

You do not accept plain statements the bible makes and claim the bible is full of contradictions. So... I'm not too interested in such views.

Also please note that i never said anyone was saved, either. What i said was that anyone who believes that they can disqualify anyone else from salvation based upon their stated beliefs has fallen into a trap, and revealed their heart. Their little child has gone missing.

Cop-out. The bible plainly says the work of the cross is vital for salvation. So, those who deny it even occurred are lost... as per the Bible, not anyone else.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

well, that is between them and God, not them and you.

I never said it was between them and me. And the bible informed us of those fates where denial of the cross is involved. It's just relaying what the bible says. And no, I am not relating what I think people should believe about it. The statements are plainly there for all to read.

This is just seeking points of division,

Nope. Just relating what the bible emphasizes.

when there is much you could seek to agree on.

That is a ridiculous way of thinking, when the bible simply states the cross is vital for salvation.

Any spirit that admits Christ has come in the flesh is from God, so you are likely fighting God as well.

Sorry, you believe the bible is full of contradictions and deny many of Paul's statements. I disregard ideas from those who hold such concepts seeing as they are the true contradictions.

So they don't agree with your legal understanding of the cross, that most Christians make a hypocrisy of, so what? It is you that will be held to the higher standard, if you have found some better knowledge.

Bible is all we need, and it contains the teaching we require for salvation, and that includes the work of the cross of Christ.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by houston

Are you kidding me? John was addressing Docetism. He wasn't saying "acknowledge that Jesus existed as a man." But, everything that Jesus is (Son of God, Messiah, etc) came in the flesh. Everything that Muslims deny.

well, the Qur'an does not deny it, and i would suspect that any Muslims denying Christ are essentially getting swept up in a semantics argument, but i am just guessing. Kind of strange to me that i have never gone down this road with any Muslims, as i have had plenty of spiritual discussions with them.

But again i am not here addressing any Muslims, nor am i here to apologize for them, suggesting hard to understand ways how they might actually be "saved" by understanding Christ as a Spirit; i am here addressing people who profess to follow Christ, and are seeking Grace, but insist that they can legally determine where someone else's heart is all while carrying their cross, and being like little children.

If you find someone's stated beliefs to be a reliable guide to the state of their salvation, just like with a professed Christian, then see that that is just the other side of a coin; we witness plenty of people who would profess this belief in Jesus that you hold dear, but don't evince a walk with Christ; so it should be no big surprise that a race risen to contest with us might not agree with our religious semantics.

The point here though is how will they be judged by God? I'm not disagreeing that the Romans passage or any of the Pauline passages are true, mind you, but that we would be enforcing our beliefs upon someone from another culture, when it doesn't work so great even within our culture, and that God, being their father, has apparently seen fit to include "follow Christ" in their Book, and will surely judge them by their own standards and beliefs.

So say what you will say here, but note where you are, and who is reading--no Muslims are going to be helped nor harmed here. This is about a Christian mindset, even if it is the one provided us by the state. You will get a chance to defend "All Muslims are lost," if that is what you profess, and i never meant to claim that i know, just that there is plenty of Scripture to suggest otherwise, and as Mike and i have demonstrated, our standards for salvation are pretty arbitrary, even to other Christians.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by houston

"Go ye therefore..."

hey, 2000 years ago that was the only way; no one had heard of Christ. I'm not denying that it is still valid today; but the Holy Spirit has quite obviously made a move, away from our churches, so maybe i am just suggesting to follow. Or to give other Scripture equal billing, lol--we love to hold to the Scriptures that empower us, and make us out to be the heads, and don't much like reading "become a little child" or "pick up your cross."