A Picture of Grace from God's Point of View

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Originally Posted by shazeep

ok well just remember that the Bible has words for you, too, it isn't prolly the best idea to use it strictly as a bludgeon on others.

It's not using it as a bludgeon. It's applying it to ourselves and everyone else, as the Lord told us to tell others its message for the sake of seeing them saved, not to offend them.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

and we have already investigated your definitions of "saved" and "lost," and you didn't do so well there, did you? But i can see that we aren't even having the same conversation, and that this prolly isn't even possible. Best of luck to you.

Well, when you say things such as we can never know the truth, anyway, your concept of lost or saved is simply something too vague to accept.

And I already mentioned that as well. No such thing as luck, unless you don't believe the word. Oh, right...

[mfblume]

Here is your error of reasoning, shazeep.

Mark 16:16 KJV He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

We read that and if we say, "You're not baptized and you don't believe? Well Jesus said you shall be damned," you jump in and say we are being judgmental!

John 3:18-19 KJV He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (19) And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

We read that and say, "You do not believe Jesus is the Messiah whose death saves us? Jesus said you are condemned already." You jump in and say we are condemning.

We read those verses and say, "You have not believed on the name of the ONLY BEGOTTEN (note the term begotten) Son of God, because your holy book says God CANNOT beget, then Jesus said you are condemned already." You jump in and say we are judgmental.

1 John 5:10 KJV He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

We read that and show the record throughout the New Testament that states the work of the cross is God's plan of salvation, and say, "You do not believe God's record of the work of the cross? You just made God a liar since you deny the cross even occurred." You jump in and say we are so condemning and not carrying our crosses!

1 John 2:22 KJV Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

We read that and say, "You do not believe God can beget a Son, since the Qu'ran says God cannot never did and never will beget? John said you are antichrist if you deny God has an actual Son He whom begat."

And you jump in and say we're being judgmental. In each and every case the bible made the conclusion, not me. And you claim I am being judgmental.

You're just not wanting to accept what parts of the bible say, is the reality of the picture. But no matter how hard you twist and force, the bible says what it says, and it is not meant to confuse or deceive. That is actually blasphemy. It is meant to shed simple truth to recover people from hell by rescuing them from false religion and .blindness.

[shazeep]

ok well i said this before to demonstrate a point, but there really is a Christ that few ever meet. There is an undeniable tension in Scripture that causes people, imo, to reveal their hearts. Are you really still trying to prove to me why all Muslims are lost?

When one gets that the legal parts of the NT really just redefine the moral ones, it becomes a lot easier to navigate Scripture, imo. For instance, any passage one might have an understanding of that does not seem to agree with "God is love" is likely being misunderstood, or taken too literally.

No doubt in your view God creates the countless billions of Muslims specifically to burn in hell forever, or recognize your authority--their choice--but see how you must then discount or ignore, or give ridiculous explanations for a lot of other Scripture. Of course they aren't ridiculous to you, as you have accepted them as truth now, but many new "believers" can associate/remember their disbelief/doubt at hearing what was at the time some new doctrine of their chosen sect.

Many just find another flavor, but many also just essentially compromise and stay; and it can be rightly said that anyone involved in a religion is compromised. I don't think this means "lost," as they are not dead yet, and even if we are not very merciful, God is.

The point being that Forgive, and you will be forgiven, for instance, applies to everyone, and if this disagrees with your religion, then it is your religion that has given you the wrong impression, not the Bible. It appeals to our natures to believe that all Muslims are lost, in order that we--who after all have only the most tenuous, possibly even imaginary, grasp on "salvation"--might be more firmly "saved," in our own minds. This is the way that seems right to a man, that ends in death.

And this death will be reflected in this man's heart, and mouth. Condemnation and judgement will be the order of the day, along with other codependent behaviors, perfectionism, literal understanding, rigid thinking, close-mindedness, extreme clannishness, even membership seeking and other self-justification behaviors. Engaging with others in society seems to require or at least breed these, yet we are called to be in--tho not of--society; "the world," while "changing our minds," arguably on these behaviors.

You likely believe All Catholics are lost, too, right? So, since none of us knows any Muslims--most of us have surely yet to even meet one--i suggest that you might drive your point @ "Muslims" home by making your similar points with Catholics being lost, since we likely all know some Catholics, therefore we can remove this discussion from the realm of fantasy, where it currently resides in both our minds, and get real for a minute. Sound good?

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

It's not using it as a bludgeon. It's applying it to ourselves and everyone else, as the Lord told us to tell others its message for the sake of seeing them saved, not to offend them.

amen, and that is why i persist, in order that you might be saved.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Well, when you say things such as we can never know the truth, anyway, your concept of lost or saved is simply something too vague to accept.

i never said that one can never know the truth, however. I said that truth is not necessarily objective. As to my concept of saved being too vague, i could present 20 Scriptures about "saved" that you would argue with, and consider "vague," and have already presented quite a few.

Originally Posted by mfblume

And I already mentioned that as well. No such thing as luck, unless you don't believe the word. Oh, right...

Oh, right, everyone else has to be wrong for you to be more right, i forgot. Huh?
i'll stick with the word "luck" there, i chose it on purpose, and it certainly seems to be a factor in courtroom dramas.

Let's go with the "Catholic" thing for a minute, i believe we might shed some light with that line of questioning, if you are game.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

ok well i said this before to demonstrate a point, but there really is a Christ that few ever meet. There is an undeniable tension in Scripture that causes people, imo, to reveal their hearts. Are you really still trying to prove to me why all Muslims are lost?

Any time I explain myself you ignore it and speak the opposite of what I just explained. So why explain to you my intentions? I stated before that I am not trying to prove muslims are lost so much as I am trying to show what the bible says its vital for salvation. The issue of a need for salvation with muslims is only a sideline thought, really. It's an implication to the greater and overall picture of the cross being necessary for salvation. That's how the bible presents the issue.

When one gets that the legal parts of the NT really just redefine the moral ones, it becomes a lot easier to navigate Scripture, imo. For instance, any passage one might have an understanding of that does not seem to agree with "God is love" is likely being misunderstood, or taken too literally.

No doubt in your view God creates the countless billions of Muslims specifically to burn in hell forever, or recognize your authority--their choice--but see how you must then discount or ignore, or give ridiculous explanations for a lot of other Scripture. Of course they aren't ridiculous to you, as you have accepted them as truth now, but many new "believers" can associate/remember their disbelief/doubt at hearing what was at the time some new doctrine of their chosen sect.

Sorry, your entire universe is so different than mine when you read Jesus say that lack of baptism and belief in Him makes one damned, and cannot walk away and apply that to ANYTHING. As best as I can see it, that effectively makes the word of God null and void.

Many just find another flavor, but many also just essentially compromise and stay; and it can be rightly said that anyone involved in a religion is compromised. I don't think this means "lost," as they are not dead yet, and even if we are not very merciful, God is.

I can agree with that principle. However, for the moment, a person is lost in sin without the cross.

The point being that Forgive, and you will be forgiven, for instance, applies to everyone, and if this disagrees with your religion, then it is your religion that has given you the wrong impression, not the Bible.

I already stated we cannot forgive someone if the bible does not forgive. God demands a person to seek forgiveness and repent in order for Him to forgive. He leads people to repentance. But how can we forgive someone when God's word says they're lost?

It appeals to our natures to believe that all Muslims are lost,

No no no. Again, see? I explain things and you act as though no explanation was given. When we discuss things, S, we have to take each other's word for why we make a certain claim when asked. Otherwise, why ask? lol

I don't want to believe anyone is lost. But it;s not my "wants" that I can stand upon. But you won't believe that. I really think your refusal to accept my explanations as what actually are true is linked to why you cannot take Mark 16:16 and apply it to a single soul on earth.

in order that we--who after all have only the most tenuous, possibly even imaginary, grasp on "salvation"--might be more firmly "saved," in our own minds. This is the way that seems right to a man, that ends in death.

You already mocked the idea of taking scripture for what it says as being "fundamentalist". So, you're in a totally different world.

And this death will be reflected in this man's heart, and mouth. Condemnation and judgement will be the order of the day, along with other codependent behaviors, perfectionism, literal understanding, rigid thinking, close-mindedness, extreme clannishness, even membership seeking and other self-justification behaviors. Engaging with others in society seems to require or at least breed these, yet we are called to be in--tho not of--society; "the world," while "changing our minds," arguably on these behaviors.

Again, it's useless to chat with you about anything because you reject my explanation over and over as if I never said it. But for the readers, it is not me judging or condemning anyone. Jesus demonstrated it is possible for a person to be already condemned according to God and His word, and for us to simply try to recover them. You act as though our acceptance of God's judgment makes us the judge!

You likely believe All Catholics are lost, too, right? So, since none of us knows any Muslims--most of us have surely yet to even meet one--i suggest that you might drive your point @ "Muslims" home by making your similar points with Catholics being lost, since we likely all know some Catholics, therefore we can remove this discussion from the realm of fantasy, where it currently resides in both our minds, and get real for a minute. Sound good?

Sure! All Catholics are lost! I say that with no less emphasis than I do in the case of Muslims. All hindus are lost. All buddhists are lost. Are you getting my point yet?

Without the work of the cross, ANYONE is lost regardless of what religion they're in. And, no, I do not believe a confession of one's faith in the cross means they're saved, for, like I've repeatedly said which you repeatedly ignored, God sees the heart and alone knows who is saved.

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Originally Posted by shazeep

amen, and that is why i persist, in order that you might be saved.

I am saved. And I really care less if you agree or not. It's not me convincing you or anyone else. It's whether or not God sees it as such. And what God required for salvation is what's been fulfilled.
And I always pray for God to correct me on anything I took wrong from his word and to lead me to all truth.

Now, if a person can change your paradigm from one that thinks God made the bible to deceive people, you might get saved!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

i never said that one can never know the truth, however. I said that truth is not necessarily objective. As to my concept of saved being too vague, i could present 20 Scriptures about "saved" that you would argue with, and consider "vague," and have already presented quite a few.

Yes you did say it. I can hunt it up if you insist.

Oh, right, everyone else has to be wrong for you to be more right, i forgot.

No, and that is a lying misrepresentation of my stance. I always said the WORD is what is right. Nothing else. But then again you cannot take the word for what it says, and think it's deception on God's part to purposely supply contradictions to entrap people, leaving those who actually believe Mark 16:16 is true to be lost.

And that's too serious for an LOL.

Huh?
i'll stick with the word "luck" there, i chose it on purpose, and it certainly seems to be a factor in courtroom dramas.

Let's go with the "Catholic" thing for a minute, i believe we might shed some light with that line of questioning, if you are game.

Catholics are lost. But they as well as muslims and buddhists and hindus, and whoever else denies the cross, can be saved if they accept it. Anything else?

[mfblume]

Shazeep,

Why is it judgmental to read this verse...

John 3:18 KJV He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

...And chat with someone who tells you that they do not believe in the name of the only begotten Son of God, and inform them the bible says they are condemned?