"Let Us Prey"-Hunter Lundy

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Esaias

And keep in mind, Paul is not giving qualifications for someone to 'preach the word'. He is speaking about oversight of the local church.

So people who have fell into sin can again be restored to a ministry of preaching the word?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

So people who have fell into sin can again be restored to a ministry of preaching the word?

Well, that was (one of) my original question(s) on this thread!

Lot's of answers given, but I had asked for what the Bible says about that subject.

I see an interesting statement:

But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
(1 Corinthians 9:27)

castaway: G96

ἀδόκιμος
adokimos
ad-ok'-ee-mos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1384; unapproved, that is, rejected; by implication worthless (literally or morally): - castaway, rejected, reprobate.
Total KJV occurrences: 8

Paul didn't seem to have the attitude that he maintained self control so he wouldn't sin and have to go through an apostolic restoration process. Rather, he feared that if he didn't keep his body under subjection he would wind up being a REPROBATE. And a reprobate is not 'an incorrigible pervert', but one who is REJECTED. One who is CAST OFF. He feared that God would CAST HIM OFF as REJECTED, as WORTHLESS for the ministry of preaching, and (likely) lost and consigned to a lake of fire.

Paul seemed to have a different take on preaching and ministry than perhaps we do today.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Well, that was (one of) my original question(s) on this thread!

Lot's of answers given, but I had asked for what the Bible says about that subject.

I see an interesting statement:

But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
(1 Corinthians 9:27)

castaway: G96

ἀδόκιμος
adokimos
ad-ok'-ee-mos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1384; unapproved, that is, rejected; by implication worthless (literally or morally): - castaway, rejected, reprobate.
Total KJV occurrences: 8

Paul didn't seem to have the attitude that he maintained self control so he wouldn't sin and have to go through an apostolic restoration process. Rather, he feared that if he didn't keep his body under subjection he would wind up being a REPROBATE. And a reprobate is not 'an incorrigible pervert', but one who is REJECTED. One who is CAST OFF. He feared that God would CAST HIM OFF as REJECTED, as WORTHLESS for the ministry of preaching, and (likely) lost and consigned to a lake of fire.

Paul seemed to have a different take on preaching and ministry than perhaps we do today.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

So people who have fell into sin can again be restored to a ministry of preaching the word?

Also, Paul giving the qualifications for an overseer does not logically mean anything - one way or the other - about a preacher who falls into sin.

Let's face it, preachers fall into sin quite a lot. They may not be 'big sins' - they may be sins of ignorance, or they may be occasions where a person's temper got the better of them and they perhaps answered more rudely than is called for. I don't see where that would result in a disbarment from preaching (unless rebuked and unrepented of, however...)

But in the cases generally considered in this thread, we are talking about things that according to the apostle Paul - if they were committed by a 'lay member' - should result in EXCOMMUNICATION.

Now, can one who has sinned - and been expelled from the church - come back to the church? Sure, if they repent. God's grace demands it be so. Such a one can come back to God, therefore the church must ratify God's decision in heaven here on earth.

But now suppose one has oversight of the church, is a shepherd of the people of God. And suppose they are Biblically excomunicated from the church. Do they come back right into their previous position of oversight? Their proven repentance gets them back into the church, not into the captain's chair.

Grace gets us into fellowship with God and one another. Oversight of the church is not a matter of grace. In fact, neither is preaching the word. It is not a matter of 'forgiveness', or of God 'restoring a backslider into communion with Himself and the brethren.' Oversight of the church is more a matter of divine appointment. It cannot be 'earned', but it does come with Biblical qualifications.

So then, a bishop who commits sin worthy of excommunication, upon their repentance, their record is clean as far as GRACE and FELLOWSHIP is concerned. But as far as QUALIFICATION FOR OVERSIGHT? Not so sure about that.

I would think, under the seriousness of the circumstances involved in the question, we would need a direct, clear, unambiguous command, example, or necessary inference proving that a bishop, excommunicated for sin, repented and restored to the church, can still qualify for oversight of the church.

Of course, most churches do not even follow proper Biblical procedure for dealing with sin anyway, so all this is probably academic for most congregations to begin with.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Also, Paul giving the qualifications for an overseer does not logically mean anything - one way or the other - about a preacher who falls into sin.

Let's face it, preachers fall into sin quite a lot. They may not be 'big sins' - they may be sins of ignorance, or they may be occasions where a person's temper got the better of them and they perhaps answered more rudely than is called for. I don't see where that would result in a disbarment from preaching (unless rebuked and unrepented of, however...)

But in the cases generally considered in this thread, we are talking about things that according to the apostle Paul - if they were committed by a 'lay member' - should result in EXCOMMUNICATION.

Now, can one who has sinned - and been expelled from the church - come back to the church? Sure, if they repent. God's grace demands it be so. Such a one can come back to God, therefore the church must ratify God's decision in heaven here on earth.

But now suppose one has oversight of the church, is a shepherd of the people of God. And suppose they are Biblically excomunicated from the church. Do they come back right into their previous position of oversight? Their proven repentance gets them back into the church, not into the captain's chair.

Grace gets us into fellowship with God and one another. Oversight of the church is not a matter of grace. In fact, neither is preaching the word. It is not a matter of 'forgiveness', or of God 'restoring a backslider into communion with Himself and the brethren.' Oversight of the church is more a matter of divine appointment. It cannot be 'earned', but it does come with Biblical qualifications.

So then, a bishop who commits sin worthy of excommunication, upon their repentance, their record is clean as far as GRACE and FELLOWSHIP is concerned. But as far as QUALIFICATION FOR OVERSIGHT? Not so sure about that.

I would think, under the seriousness of the circumstances involved in the question, we would need a direct, clear, unambiguous command, example, or necessary inference proving that a bishop, excommunicated for sin, repented and restored to the church, can still qualify for oversight of the church.

Of course, most churches do not even follow proper Biblical procedure for dealing with sin anyway, so all this is probably academic for most congregations to begin with.

Another thing that comes to my mind for minister who has fallen. Did he come clean on his own or did they have to get caught. I personally believe that if a person struggles with the same vices long enough their conscious becomes seared. They may show remorse after being caught, but it is likely for image sake. When I was a teenager I had gotten entangled in sin and I went to my pastor and stepped down from a worship service ministry. I didn't confess all the details and I wouldn't even now, but I was tormented with guilt. Sin is slavery and if we allow ourselves to partake of sin after our deliverance it again takes a miraculous intervention to deliver us. We aren't guaranteed that we will continue to get chances.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Another thing that comes to my mind for minister who has fallen. Did he come clean on his own or did they have to get caught. I personally believe that if a person struggles with the same vices long enough their conscious becomes seared. They may show remorse after being caught, but it is likely for image sake. When I was a teenager I had gotten entangled in sin and I went to my pastor and stepped down from a worship service ministry. I didn't confess all the details and I wouldn't even now, but I was tormented with guilt. Sin is slavery and if we allow ourselves to partake of sin after our deliverance it again takes a miraculous intervention to deliver us. We aren't guaranteed that we will continue to get chances.

Most of the time they get caught.